ATTN: ChevyKen, GGA, et al...
02-25-2002, 11:06 AM
#1
Moderator
Thread Starter
ATTN: ChevyKen, GGA, et al...
Ken,
Sorry for possibly confusing the issue, but that other thread was getting so long it wouldn't always load completely and took forever. This is the original thread: https://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/new...threadid=80231
Regardless - Great! You repaired the vacumm leak. My theory is that between the failed plug and the vacuum leak, the majority of your problems were solved. I'm still very suspicious about the ECM. It is possible that the 5VDC regulated supply was a problem, but very, very often, just removing and reseating the edge connectors (and thereby cleaning them) solves many rogue ECM problems. The fact that you reinitialized the ECM by removing backup power from it and forcing it to relearn couldn't have hurt your cause either. We'll never be sure, since the replacement unit is in and running, apperently well.
A few miscellaneous points:
I've heard that complaint about the Crane AFPR kits as well. I installed a much shorter ¼-28 bolt in my conversion AFPR and have very little extra room, but enough at least. If the bolt is actually touching the underside of the plenum, it can't be good for steady fuel pressure since the spring cap can be distorted by the thermal expansion of engine components and change the pressure.
Disregard the apparent lack of cooling fans for now. The stock PROM will turn the fan(s) on at around 232°F and off at 223°F. The fan(s) should also turn on in Field Service Mode, or with the A/C high-side pressure switch.
As for the apparent lack of minimum air adjustment, this method has always worked for me:
Throttle Minimum Air Position
Tools needed:
1. Torx driver # T-20
2. Paper Clip
3. Small Punch
4. Tachometer
GENERAL NOTE: The engine should be at normal operating temperature before performing any adjustments. Never rely on the dash mounted instruments for diagnostics and adjustments. The oil pressure and temperature gauges and the voltmeter and tachometer just aren't calibrated accurately enough for diagnosis, but are a relative indication for monitoring the vehicle while driving.
For this adjustment, the transmission will be in DRIVE while you're under the hood. You will need to securely set the parking brake and block the drive wheels. It would also be a good idea to have an assistant hold the service brakes while you perform the adjustments.
In order to successfully complete the adjustment, the IAC air passages and pintle need to be clean. The throttle plates and bores need to be clean as well. If this is not the case, you'll need to remove the air cleaner from TBI engines or the intake air bellows from TPI engines to gain access to the area to be cleaned. A spray-type carburetor cleaner works well for this. Cleaning the IAC passages on a TPI/MAF engine will set a DTC, but we'll be clearing that later. With the engine idling, direct the spray cleaner into the IAC air passages and around the throttle plates. Shut off the engine and continue cleaning the throttle plates by opening the throttle manually. Once everything is satisfactorily cleaned, replace the air bellows on TPI engines. Many times, this alone can solve IAC/idle speed problems.
If this doesn't solve the problem, you may need to remove and clean the IAC stepper motor. If the IAC appears to be clean and functioning properly, continue with the adjustment procedure.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Idle Air Control Cleaning
Hopefully you IAC is already cleaned. If not, you may want to do this to be certain. Remove the electrical connector from the IAC. Unscrew the IAC unit from the throttle body.
You can gently rock the pintle back and forth and allow the spring to extend it until it comes apart in your hands. Clean everything with lint-free cloths and a mild solvent. Harsh solvents can affect the insulation of the stepper motor coils. It's generally the dirt and buildup on this worm shaft that causes sluggish IAC operation.
When the worm gear on the pintle shaft is clean and dry, apply one drop of clean light oil to the shaft and work the pintle back into the rack gears of the motor by the same rocking motion. It takes a while to get the pintle back into the worm gears, but you'll get it. It is important to get the pintle fully retracted into the housing so that the pintle is not forced against the gears when reinstalling the IAC unit in the throttle body.
While the IAC is out, clean the air passages in the throttle body. The oriface in the TB where the IAC resides is the seat that the IAC valve closes against, and it can accumulate a lot of carbon, dirt, and debris. The easy way to do this is with carburetor cleaner and a small stiff brush.
When everything is clean and dry, replace the gasket if it is damaged, apply a little anti-seize to the threads, and torque the IAC to the proper specs. (13 ft/lb for '85-'89 , 30 in/lb for 1990-on.) Proceed with setting the TPS and minimum air position.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Locate the Assembly Line Diagnostic Link connector under your dash panel. Remove the cover if it is still there.
Cut and form a paper clip into a "U" shape. Insert the clip ends into the ALDL in the 'A' and 'B' sockets.
Turn on the ignition, but DON'T start the engine. This will force the ECM into its diagnostic mode. Wait 30 seconds to allow the IAC pintle to fully extend. With the ignition still ON, go under the hood, remove the electrical connector from the IAC, then turn off the ignition and remove the paper clip jumper from the ALDL. With the IAC pintle fully extended (closed) all idle air will be controlled by the position of the throttle plates. Some manuals indicate that the EST bypass connector should be disconnected for this procedure, while some make no mention of it. While timing is a factor in idle speed, the EST should only operate as a function of engine RPM, temperature, and detonation sensor inputs. To remove all doubt, disconnect the EST bypass connector is your car is so equipped.
Locate the Torx screw on the left side of the throttle body. Block the drive wheels and set the parking brake. Start the engine and place the transmission in DRIVE. Adjust the throttle stop to obtain 400-450 RPM with the transmission in "DRIVE" on an automatic transmission car, 450-550 in neutral on a manual transmission car, rotating the Torx screw clockwise to raise speed and counter-clockwise to lower speed. Once the idle RPM is set, place the transmission in PARK and turn off the engine. You may actually want to set your base RPM toward the higher end of the range, since your aftermarket cam profile is causing a little less idle vacuum.
Re-connect the electrical connector onto the IAC. Start engine. Idle speed should be governed by the ECM at approximately 600-650 rpm in "DRIVE" (for unmodified cars). Idle speed in NEUTRAL or PARK is less significant, and will be higher.
Recheck the TPS voltage and adjust as necessary. if you moved the throttle plates to set minimum air position, the TPS voltage should have changed.
You may also have set a DTC since the EST was bypassed and the IAC was disconnected. You may want to remove power from the ECM to reinitialize it and force it to relearn one more time. It will eventually adjust itself, but will be forced to do so immediately if you remove the backup power.
Good luck.
Sorry for possibly confusing the issue, but that other thread was getting so long it wouldn't always load completely and took forever. This is the original thread: https://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/new...threadid=80231
Regardless - Great! You repaired the vacumm leak. My theory is that between the failed plug and the vacuum leak, the majority of your problems were solved. I'm still very suspicious about the ECM. It is possible that the 5VDC regulated supply was a problem, but very, very often, just removing and reseating the edge connectors (and thereby cleaning them) solves many rogue ECM problems. The fact that you reinitialized the ECM by removing backup power from it and forcing it to relearn couldn't have hurt your cause either. We'll never be sure, since the replacement unit is in and running, apperently well.
A few miscellaneous points:
I've heard that complaint about the Crane AFPR kits as well. I installed a much shorter ¼-28 bolt in my conversion AFPR and have very little extra room, but enough at least. If the bolt is actually touching the underside of the plenum, it can't be good for steady fuel pressure since the spring cap can be distorted by the thermal expansion of engine components and change the pressure.
Disregard the apparent lack of cooling fans for now. The stock PROM will turn the fan(s) on at around 232°F and off at 223°F. The fan(s) should also turn on in Field Service Mode, or with the A/C high-side pressure switch.
As for the apparent lack of minimum air adjustment, this method has always worked for me:
Throttle Minimum Air Position
Tools needed:
1. Torx driver # T-20
2. Paper Clip
3. Small Punch
4. Tachometer
GENERAL NOTE: The engine should be at normal operating temperature before performing any adjustments. Never rely on the dash mounted instruments for diagnostics and adjustments. The oil pressure and temperature gauges and the voltmeter and tachometer just aren't calibrated accurately enough for diagnosis, but are a relative indication for monitoring the vehicle while driving.
For this adjustment, the transmission will be in DRIVE while you're under the hood. You will need to securely set the parking brake and block the drive wheels. It would also be a good idea to have an assistant hold the service brakes while you perform the adjustments.
In order to successfully complete the adjustment, the IAC air passages and pintle need to be clean. The throttle plates and bores need to be clean as well. If this is not the case, you'll need to remove the air cleaner from TBI engines or the intake air bellows from TPI engines to gain access to the area to be cleaned. A spray-type carburetor cleaner works well for this. Cleaning the IAC passages on a TPI/MAF engine will set a DTC, but we'll be clearing that later. With the engine idling, direct the spray cleaner into the IAC air passages and around the throttle plates. Shut off the engine and continue cleaning the throttle plates by opening the throttle manually. Once everything is satisfactorily cleaned, replace the air bellows on TPI engines. Many times, this alone can solve IAC/idle speed problems.
If this doesn't solve the problem, you may need to remove and clean the IAC stepper motor. If the IAC appears to be clean and functioning properly, continue with the adjustment procedure.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Idle Air Control Cleaning
Hopefully you IAC is already cleaned. If not, you may want to do this to be certain. Remove the electrical connector from the IAC. Unscrew the IAC unit from the throttle body.
You can gently rock the pintle back and forth and allow the spring to extend it until it comes apart in your hands. Clean everything with lint-free cloths and a mild solvent. Harsh solvents can affect the insulation of the stepper motor coils. It's generally the dirt and buildup on this worm shaft that causes sluggish IAC operation.
When the worm gear on the pintle shaft is clean and dry, apply one drop of clean light oil to the shaft and work the pintle back into the rack gears of the motor by the same rocking motion. It takes a while to get the pintle back into the worm gears, but you'll get it. It is important to get the pintle fully retracted into the housing so that the pintle is not forced against the gears when reinstalling the IAC unit in the throttle body.
While the IAC is out, clean the air passages in the throttle body. The oriface in the TB where the IAC resides is the seat that the IAC valve closes against, and it can accumulate a lot of carbon, dirt, and debris. The easy way to do this is with carburetor cleaner and a small stiff brush.
When everything is clean and dry, replace the gasket if it is damaged, apply a little anti-seize to the threads, and torque the IAC to the proper specs. (13 ft/lb for '85-'89 , 30 in/lb for 1990-on.) Proceed with setting the TPS and minimum air position.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Locate the Assembly Line Diagnostic Link connector under your dash panel. Remove the cover if it is still there.
Cut and form a paper clip into a "U" shape. Insert the clip ends into the ALDL in the 'A' and 'B' sockets.
Turn on the ignition, but DON'T start the engine. This will force the ECM into its diagnostic mode. Wait 30 seconds to allow the IAC pintle to fully extend. With the ignition still ON, go under the hood, remove the electrical connector from the IAC, then turn off the ignition and remove the paper clip jumper from the ALDL. With the IAC pintle fully extended (closed) all idle air will be controlled by the position of the throttle plates. Some manuals indicate that the EST bypass connector should be disconnected for this procedure, while some make no mention of it. While timing is a factor in idle speed, the EST should only operate as a function of engine RPM, temperature, and detonation sensor inputs. To remove all doubt, disconnect the EST bypass connector is your car is so equipped.
Locate the Torx screw on the left side of the throttle body. Block the drive wheels and set the parking brake. Start the engine and place the transmission in DRIVE. Adjust the throttle stop to obtain 400-450 RPM with the transmission in "DRIVE" on an automatic transmission car, 450-550 in neutral on a manual transmission car, rotating the Torx screw clockwise to raise speed and counter-clockwise to lower speed. Once the idle RPM is set, place the transmission in PARK and turn off the engine. You may actually want to set your base RPM toward the higher end of the range, since your aftermarket cam profile is causing a little less idle vacuum.
Re-connect the electrical connector onto the IAC. Start engine. Idle speed should be governed by the ECM at approximately 600-650 rpm in "DRIVE" (for unmodified cars). Idle speed in NEUTRAL or PARK is less significant, and will be higher.
Recheck the TPS voltage and adjust as necessary. if you moved the throttle plates to set minimum air position, the TPS voltage should have changed.
You may also have set a DTC since the EST was bypassed and the IAC was disconnected. You may want to remove power from the ECM to reinitialize it and force it to relearn one more time. It will eventually adjust itself, but will be forced to do so immediately if you remove the backup power.
Good luck.
Last edited by Vader; 03-31-2018 at 10:42 AM. Reason: Updated links
02-25-2002, 03:26 PM
#2
Vader,
Good idea to start it over! I noticed that it started getting slow as well.
As far as the ECM goes - yeah, there is no telling if re-seating it would have changed anything as I never did that with the stock one. The battery has been disconnected many times though, if that is what you mean by the backup, so that for sure didn't fix it.
Another thing that has come to mind now is that if the ECM was faulty, it probably has been for a while. The reason I think so is that the car previously to the mods occationally did throw a code 43 - and especially when driving for a long period of time. Nothing noticable happend to the car or the way it ran, but nevertheless it happend. I had forgotten about that as it only happend occationally. Either way, it seems to be fine now.
I was thinking the same thing about replacing the bolt with a shorter one as it is at least 1/2" longer than what would ever be neccessary for adjusting. That sure is rediculous!
That is also a very good point with the thermal expansion. I had not thought about that, but I will check if it is infact touching the plenum. I know it is mighty close. I'd just hate to have to take it all apart to replace that d@mn bolt.
Well, I need to do something with the cooling fans, because something obviously happend. Before the temp would never be more than 220 or maybe a tad over, if the car was idling for a good while. Now if I drive the car until it is warm and I stop for a few minutes, it goes to 240-250 and climbing. The fan does infact start in field service mode though.
Regarding the IAC, sounds like cleaning is the next step, because I have not done that - and who knows if it has ever been done ehe? But the way you describe what happens if there is a lot of dirt, sure sounds familiar.
When I tried to set the IAC, I did not have the car in drive though. However, as I mentioned - I had a hard time getting the car started, period - after disconnecting the IAC after following the procedure you described with warm car, paper clip etc. - and it is at this point impossible to get it to idle with the IAC discconected. So, cleaning will definitely be the next step then.
Now, am I better off taking off the throttle body to clean the IAC itself and its orifice in the TB? Also, Im not confident that I understood what parts exactly to clean while the engine is idling?
Thanks again,
Ken
Good idea to start it over! I noticed that it started getting slow as well.
As far as the ECM goes - yeah, there is no telling if re-seating it would have changed anything as I never did that with the stock one. The battery has been disconnected many times though, if that is what you mean by the backup, so that for sure didn't fix it.
Another thing that has come to mind now is that if the ECM was faulty, it probably has been for a while. The reason I think so is that the car previously to the mods occationally did throw a code 43 - and especially when driving for a long period of time. Nothing noticable happend to the car or the way it ran, but nevertheless it happend. I had forgotten about that as it only happend occationally. Either way, it seems to be fine now.
I was thinking the same thing about replacing the bolt with a shorter one as it is at least 1/2" longer than what would ever be neccessary for adjusting. That sure is rediculous!
That is also a very good point with the thermal expansion. I had not thought about that, but I will check if it is infact touching the plenum. I know it is mighty close. I'd just hate to have to take it all apart to replace that d@mn bolt.
Well, I need to do something with the cooling fans, because something obviously happend. Before the temp would never be more than 220 or maybe a tad over, if the car was idling for a good while. Now if I drive the car until it is warm and I stop for a few minutes, it goes to 240-250 and climbing. The fan does infact start in field service mode though.
Regarding the IAC, sounds like cleaning is the next step, because I have not done that - and who knows if it has ever been done ehe? But the way you describe what happens if there is a lot of dirt, sure sounds familiar.
When I tried to set the IAC, I did not have the car in drive though. However, as I mentioned - I had a hard time getting the car started, period - after disconnecting the IAC after following the procedure you described with warm car, paper clip etc. - and it is at this point impossible to get it to idle with the IAC discconected. So, cleaning will definitely be the next step then.
Now, am I better off taking off the throttle body to clean the IAC itself and its orifice in the TB? Also, Im not confident that I understood what parts exactly to clean while the engine is idling?
Thanks again,
Ken
02-25-2002, 09:45 PM
#3
Moderator
Thread Starter
Ken,
I wouldn't advise trying to clean a lot while the engine is running. You should remove the rubber bellows from the front of the throttle body, then remove the IAC motor. Clean out the lower opening between the throttle bores (the place labelled "IAC AIR PASSAGES" in the photo).
Also clean out the place that the IAC motor was removed from. The recess in the TB has the seat that the IAC pintle closes against. You can see in the photo that the IAC passage air hole leads to the inner portion of the IAC stepper motor, where the pintle would reside.
You can also remove the pintle, clean and lightly lubricate it as described earlier, and replace it. Once it is cleaned, you should be able to rely on the IAC to react quickly and control the idle speed correctly.
I wouldn't advise trying to clean a lot while the engine is running. You should remove the rubber bellows from the front of the throttle body, then remove the IAC motor. Clean out the lower opening between the throttle bores (the place labelled "IAC AIR PASSAGES" in the photo).
Also clean out the place that the IAC motor was removed from. The recess in the TB has the seat that the IAC pintle closes against. You can see in the photo that the IAC passage air hole leads to the inner portion of the IAC stepper motor, where the pintle would reside.
You can also remove the pintle, clean and lightly lubricate it as described earlier, and replace it. Once it is cleaned, you should be able to rely on the IAC to react quickly and control the idle speed correctly.
02-26-2002, 11:03 PM
#4
Vader,
Thanks for the great pics!
Okay, I misread your post then - I thought you said I would get an error code, that's why I assumed the engine would be running.
Looks like I will have to take off the TB to get the IAC out? It probably would be better anyway in order to make sure it got completely clean.
That will be next weekends project then. The more I drive it, the more I believe that the dirt can be the cause, because it varies a lot. Sometimes it will barely idle at around 4-500 rpms (rough idle), and other times it is up around 11-1200rpms running pretty smooth.
We'll see where the cleaning takes it.
BTW, the temperature has been perfectly fine, or actually lower than usual after unplugging the connector at the A/C line - so since that helped, what is going on there??
One last question, should I leave the timing at 15° ?
Thanks!
Ken
Thanks for the great pics!
Okay, I misread your post then - I thought you said I would get an error code, that's why I assumed the engine would be running.
Looks like I will have to take off the TB to get the IAC out? It probably would be better anyway in order to make sure it got completely clean.
That will be next weekends project then. The more I drive it, the more I believe that the dirt can be the cause, because it varies a lot. Sometimes it will barely idle at around 4-500 rpms (rough idle), and other times it is up around 11-1200rpms running pretty smooth.
We'll see where the cleaning takes it.
BTW, the temperature has been perfectly fine, or actually lower than usual after unplugging the connector at the A/C line - so since that helped, what is going on there??
One last question, should I leave the timing at 15° ?
Thanks!
Ken
02-28-2002, 02:08 AM
#5
Senior Member
hi-back for more-nope please reset initial timing to spec.keeping in mind the related idle snafu may throw a monkey wrench for a bit into the dial in mix. whats the tps voltage at idle now? if she is sitting at .54 or a bit lower-try this-note tps voltage -with car off turn min air screw 1/2 turn in-open-maybe a little less than 1/2-but not much less, and copy and paste the amount into the brain housing group for future reference. start it and drive a bit-initially try to get on a flat road where a steady cruise can be maintained for a few miles-slowly decellerate and come to a complete stop.and remain in place and observe the idle speed-if it is already down to the earlier speed.good.if its not wait and see if it will come down gradually on its own. still idles high-put in park and shut er off for a second or so-not critical how long-start again and drive home observe idle speed-if it is still too high return screw to previous position-if it is where it should be, i.e. what it was or thereabouts-post results for next step in this. we will sneak up on her and she will never know we tricked her.
02-28-2002, 06:52 AM
#6
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Join Date: Oct 2000
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Car: 87 IROC
Engine: LB9 for the moment
Transmission: T5
ok so I'm over anxious... want to know why for... speculative... (for my info)... PM me and make sure I'm thinking right...
zroc
zroc
02-28-2002, 12:49 PM
#7
Senior Member
yes big daddy-the tutorial is in the box.
Trending Topics
02-28-2002, 01:23 PM
#8
gga,
Is 12° the stock setting?
Actually, I tried to adjust the min air screw a little to make it idle with the IAC disconnected, but it didn't help. However, Im not 100% confident that I did sufficient driving with it after adjusting the min air screw, before I started the IAC adjustment procedure.
Either way, let me go through that cleaning procedure of the IAC/passages as Vader described, because I am strongly suspicious of it being mighty dirty - then we'll get back to the actual IAC adjustment.
Just to revisit, what is the probable cause of the fan not starting, but running all the time when the plug on the A/C line is disconnected?
Tomorrow is the weekend and we're set for another blizzard, so it'd be a good time to be in the garage fiddling with it tomorrow night or saturday!
Ken
Is 12° the stock setting?
Actually, I tried to adjust the min air screw a little to make it idle with the IAC disconnected, but it didn't help. However, Im not 100% confident that I did sufficient driving with it after adjusting the min air screw, before I started the IAC adjustment procedure.
Either way, let me go through that cleaning procedure of the IAC/passages as Vader described, because I am strongly suspicious of it being mighty dirty - then we'll get back to the actual IAC adjustment.
Just to revisit, what is the probable cause of the fan not starting, but running all the time when the plug on the A/C line is disconnected?
Tomorrow is the weekend and we're set for another blizzard, so it'd be a good time to be in the garage fiddling with it tomorrow night or saturday!
Ken
02-28-2002, 04:41 PM
#9
Senior Member
factory turn on settings for most all car lines is 232 degrees F. this factory setting is frightening to most people. truth be known-a camaro with all scheduled maintenance items performed kind of on time-without second guessing the factory recommendations-ie, coolant, lubricants,tune items, at least a tip of the hat to some of the inspections, etc is fully capable of living a long and healthy life at those "elevated" operating temps. the stock settings may not be the best for maximum power output, but thats the compromise struck by gm and the epa. the actual operating temp for maximum efficiency-this was results from tests i read that caterpillar did a couple years ago-was somewhere up around 250-260 yikes. chances are that 232 is taking a long time to get to-as you idle in place, probably real close to the red on the gauge then its panic button time. calibration isnt always the best on the gauge-i would let it get up there some more and see what happens-chances are the fan will operate-the fan turns on when the hi side switch goes open because the ecm is monitoring 12 volts thru its internal circuits and open (disconnected) simulates a high side pressure of i think ,around 230psi or so ecm kicks the fan on to provide airflow across the condenser-and drop the pressure-(boyles law?) sumtin like dat- six degrees before is factory spec. to shoot for. for now anyhow. blizzard schmizzard t-shirts and cocktails with them little umbrellas in em- well OK a can of bud with the greasy fingerprints wiped off where your mouth fits. how romantic
02-28-2002, 05:22 PM
#10
gga,
I just realized that my last post was kinda confusing - what I meant with the 12°'s was for the stock timing
I see what you are saying with the fans and temperatures etc. - but I guarantee that something has changed because I've driven this car every day for going on 4 years and the temp has always been dead steady right below 220 on the gauge when fully warm, possibly touching 220 if idling for a long time. On 95°F summerdays in city traffic it would get up around 230-35.
Now all of a sudden if the plug in the A/C line is connected it will run around the regular 220 on normal driving, but if you let it idle it goes up to 250'ish within minutes, and then if I proceed driving and get some "wind" it'll cool down to around 220 again, but stopping at a light is enough to make it start climbing again.
So, there is no doubt something has changed, but I have no idea what
All I know is that I cut it off or get rolling when it gets up there and starts smelling "warm".
The sensor for the fan and the one for the gauge are two different ones, right? The gauge one is the one in the drivers side head, correct? But which one is the fan relying on, is it the CTS on the front of the intake ?
BTW, just for clarification - the fan problem happened right before I swapped the ECM's, so it is not a result of that.
Thanks again,
Ken
I just realized that my last post was kinda confusing - what I meant with the 12°'s was for the stock timing
I see what you are saying with the fans and temperatures etc. - but I guarantee that something has changed because I've driven this car every day for going on 4 years and the temp has always been dead steady right below 220 on the gauge when fully warm, possibly touching 220 if idling for a long time. On 95°F summerdays in city traffic it would get up around 230-35.
Now all of a sudden if the plug in the A/C line is connected it will run around the regular 220 on normal driving, but if you let it idle it goes up to 250'ish within minutes, and then if I proceed driving and get some "wind" it'll cool down to around 220 again, but stopping at a light is enough to make it start climbing again.
So, there is no doubt something has changed, but I have no idea what
All I know is that I cut it off or get rolling when it gets up there and starts smelling "warm".
The sensor for the fan and the one for the gauge are two different ones, right? The gauge one is the one in the drivers side head, correct? But which one is the fan relying on, is it the CTS on the front of the intake ?
BTW, just for clarification - the fan problem happened right before I swapped the ECM's, so it is not a result of that.
Thanks again,
Ken
02-28-2002, 07:35 PM
#11
Senior Member
check the coolant concentration-you are running good old green? should be diluted with water to 50/50 which gets ya -34 degrees of protection thats as in 34 below zero. undiluted coolant is ng and trouble. the cooling fan is controlled by the ecm which relies only on the cts for its input. the stat is a new 180 correct? did you drill any bypass holes in it? cant beat the protection that a couple 1/8th holes can offer. in the event of steam pockets forming in the cylinder head-the holes allow the steam to be displaced easily by liquid coolant and it keeps a little flowing around so if pockets form they are bubbled out. that in conjunction with plugging the real bypass keeps some coolant always flowing thru the radiator.if water pump was replaced-did you check it for correct impeller orientation-your year has seperate belts and its a standard rotation. 12 degrees, are we talking the base adjustment? the one that is set when the black/tan wire is pulled? im not sure what is the question then. are you needing the factory spec.its 6 btdc in drive with all accessories off. the spec is calling for a 400 rpm idle speed while checking-in drive. there is also on 86's a fan switch similar to the later years setup. only it controls the single fan-in my experience-some have the switch and some are still like the 85's. find the wire, dark green and white wire and ground it. it should cause the fan to kick on pull the connector off the sensor and ground it right at the head. gotta go for now ck back later
03-01-2002, 10:47 PM
#12
woppssss...could've sworn I replied to this one!!
Anyways,
Yes, Im running on green at 50/50.
Stat is just a couple of months, and is a 180°, but I have not drilled any holes in it. I had never heard that before - but it certainly makes sense. I'll do that tomorrow when I drain out some coolant to take the TB off.
Yes, the waterpump is correct - besides I have driven with the new water pump since I was done with the mods around christmas, and the temp problem started only about 2 weeks ago.
Yes, I was wondering about the base timing with the blk/tan connector disconnected. I was asking since I set the timing to 15° as suggested earlier in the thread - but I was not sure if maybe I needed to set it to whatever the stock setting is in order to do the IAC adjustment, or if I should be able to do it with the engine at 15° - and also if I should keep the timing set at 15° permanently or only until she is running right?
Where is the fan switch located if I have it? BTW, I have a single fan car.
Thanks again, and my apologies for the delay in the reply.
Ken
Anyways,
Yes, Im running on green at 50/50.
Stat is just a couple of months, and is a 180°, but I have not drilled any holes in it. I had never heard that before - but it certainly makes sense. I'll do that tomorrow when I drain out some coolant to take the TB off.
Yes, the waterpump is correct - besides I have driven with the new water pump since I was done with the mods around christmas, and the temp problem started only about 2 weeks ago.
Yes, I was wondering about the base timing with the blk/tan connector disconnected. I was asking since I set the timing to 15° as suggested earlier in the thread - but I was not sure if maybe I needed to set it to whatever the stock setting is in order to do the IAC adjustment, or if I should be able to do it with the engine at 15° - and also if I should keep the timing set at 15° permanently or only until she is running right?
Where is the fan switch located if I have it? BTW, I have a single fan car.
Thanks again, and my apologies for the delay in the reply.
Ken
03-02-2002, 01:34 AM
#13
Senior Member
no problemo.-the 15 degree suggestion i told you oh so many typewriter sessions ago was thrown out by me to have you do as a diagnostic thing for me. what it would tell me if the driveability became more manageable or not. soooooooo-then you have been driving around with it twisted up to 15? oy, no wonder you are experiencing the elevated operating temps. back er down to spec. which is really going to turn the idle into another relearn task. open the throttle butterflies 1/2 turn on the min air as the timing is put in spec.-recheck tps .54 + or-.7
03-03-2002, 01:18 AM
#14
Hey gga,
Wopppssii ya' busted me on the Appearance board
Anyways, here is what I did today:
I took the throttle body off in order to give it some thorough cleaning of it and the IAC. There is no doubt that was necessary! So, after cleaning both the IAC, the passages and the TB, I slipped it back in and started back up again. After letting it go up to operating temperature, it still would not idle as soon as I pulled the IAC plug. It was even hard to start - like it was last weekend when I tried that. SO, in order to make it idle with the IAC disconnected, I had to adjust the idle screw at least one and a half turns!!! Oh and at this point I had reduced the timing down to 12°.
Now, of course after adjusting that much on the idle screw, the TPS was way off - I believe .71V if my mind serves me. So I reset that back to .54V
I then again went through the IAC setting procedure, and it seemed fine, idled at about 750 rpms with everything hooked up as normal.
However, after letting the car sit for a while I was going to head home (using my in-laws garage) - and when I started it, I gave it a quick hit on the throttle after it started, and it went right up to about 2200rpms and then very slowly went down to around 1000-1100 rpms where it would now idle.
Im not quite sure what is going on or why it takes so long to slow down the rpms, but I suspect that it is all a matter of getting the TPS and the IAC "synchronized", what do you think?
Also, how far down should I set the timing - is 12°'s still too much?
Thanks,
Ken
Wopppssii ya' busted me on the Appearance board
Anyways, here is what I did today:
I took the throttle body off in order to give it some thorough cleaning of it and the IAC. There is no doubt that was necessary! So, after cleaning both the IAC, the passages and the TB, I slipped it back in and started back up again. After letting it go up to operating temperature, it still would not idle as soon as I pulled the IAC plug. It was even hard to start - like it was last weekend when I tried that. SO, in order to make it idle with the IAC disconnected, I had to adjust the idle screw at least one and a half turns!!! Oh and at this point I had reduced the timing down to 12°.
Now, of course after adjusting that much on the idle screw, the TPS was way off - I believe .71V if my mind serves me. So I reset that back to .54V
I then again went through the IAC setting procedure, and it seemed fine, idled at about 750 rpms with everything hooked up as normal.
However, after letting the car sit for a while I was going to head home (using my in-laws garage) - and when I started it, I gave it a quick hit on the throttle after it started, and it went right up to about 2200rpms and then very slowly went down to around 1000-1100 rpms where it would now idle.
Im not quite sure what is going on or why it takes so long to slow down the rpms, but I suspect that it is all a matter of getting the TPS and the IAC "synchronized", what do you think?
Also, how far down should I set the timing - is 12°'s still too much?
Thanks,
Ken
03-03-2002, 08:54 AM
#15
Moderator
Thread Starter
Ken,
I'm sure Grump is going to have his own opinion, but I'd set the base timing back to 6° for now, while the ECM relearns the sensors.
The idle should go fairly high when starting cold. 2,200 sounds too high. I believe the cold target idle can be as high as 1,600 RPM, if memory serves me. As the CTS gains temperature, the target idle speed decreases. Once the CTS is reporting 176°F or higher, the target idle should be at the oft-quoted 650 RPM in drive, or around 850-900 RPM in neutral (obviously higher in neutral).
The good news is that the system is reacting as it should - starting at higher RPM then slowly stepping down to a reasonable level. My TPI hits about 1,500 when cold starting in a 50°F garage, and takes about 3-4 minutes to drop below 1,000 RPM.
The fact that you had to turn the throttle stop screw back 1½ turns to get the minimum air idle speed back to normal tells me that the TB was really dirty. Your point that "There is no doubt that was necessary" is likely an understatement.
Give the ECM a little time to adjust, then you can tinker with the base ignition timing if you like. Mine does pretty well at 10°BTC on 94 corn gas, but all out engines are slightly different.
Not to belabor the point, but the outline of the procedure for setting the throttle minimum air position does state that the throttle plates and bores need to be clean. I've been burned by that before, and it never hurts to be certain.
Let us know how it works out.
I'm sure Grump is going to have his own opinion, but I'd set the base timing back to 6° for now, while the ECM relearns the sensors.
The idle should go fairly high when starting cold. 2,200 sounds too high. I believe the cold target idle can be as high as 1,600 RPM, if memory serves me. As the CTS gains temperature, the target idle speed decreases. Once the CTS is reporting 176°F or higher, the target idle should be at the oft-quoted 650 RPM in drive, or around 850-900 RPM in neutral (obviously higher in neutral).
The good news is that the system is reacting as it should - starting at higher RPM then slowly stepping down to a reasonable level. My TPI hits about 1,500 when cold starting in a 50°F garage, and takes about 3-4 minutes to drop below 1,000 RPM.
The fact that you had to turn the throttle stop screw back 1½ turns to get the minimum air idle speed back to normal tells me that the TB was really dirty. Your point that "There is no doubt that was necessary" is likely an understatement.
Give the ECM a little time to adjust, then you can tinker with the base ignition timing if you like. Mine does pretty well at 10°BTC on 94 corn gas, but all out engines are slightly different.
Not to belabor the point, but the outline of the procedure for setting the throttle minimum air position does state that the throttle plates and bores need to be clean. I've been burned by that before, and it never hurts to be certain.
Let us know how it works out.
03-03-2002, 04:07 PM
#16
Senior Member
hi fellas-im not playing if yer not readin. neener-neener yes please back the initial down to spec. 6btdc. (see above-3 up) the idle flare you experienced is a good sign things are coming together inside the happy ecm-thats been engineered into the system and will usually show up even warm-the idle flare is the engineers attempt to get the converter lit off asap. and remember-its not a q-jet so stabbing the throttle wont get it off the fast idle cam.just let the rpms decay and go. 
03-03-2002, 09:51 PM
#17
Alright,
I've spent some time today just driving around at different speeds to make sure the ecm has relearned - and this is what is going on at this point.
The car starts right up now, and goes to an immediate idle of 1600rpms, and slowly sinks down to about 1100rpms.
Now, this is the kicker - it never goes below 1100rpms on idle, even after it has gotten warm. So, Im guessing I just have to re-do the IAC adjustment to a lower rpm, right? I also checked the TPS and it is dead on .54V right now, so that shouldn't be causing any trouble.
Now, this is what is bothering me though - the car drives like $#!t once you get more than about 2-2300 rpms, like when accelerating (just normal). It will pop and shoot in the exhaust like crazy, but once I come to a normal cruise at 15-1800rpms, it runs smooth. This happend after everything was cleaned AND the IAC + timing was set. I am suspicious to the timing (which I still have at 12°) because it did use to pop and shoot in the exhaust a couple of weeks ago before I bumped the timing from 9 to 15°.
What is the most likely cause of this? The timing or the high idle?
I have also seen on several occations now that right when I start the car it pops a Code 32 and sometimes also a Code 42. This ONLY happens right when it starts and then it goes away after a couple of minutes and remain gone...
gawd this pos is getting on my nerves. I've got a TON of programming homework that is due before springbreak and I havent even gotten started on it yet....argghhhhh
Ken
I've spent some time today just driving around at different speeds to make sure the ecm has relearned - and this is what is going on at this point.
The car starts right up now, and goes to an immediate idle of 1600rpms, and slowly sinks down to about 1100rpms.
Now, this is the kicker - it never goes below 1100rpms on idle, even after it has gotten warm. So, Im guessing I just have to re-do the IAC adjustment to a lower rpm, right? I also checked the TPS and it is dead on .54V right now, so that shouldn't be causing any trouble.
Now, this is what is bothering me though - the car drives like $#!t once you get more than about 2-2300 rpms, like when accelerating (just normal). It will pop and shoot in the exhaust like crazy, but once I come to a normal cruise at 15-1800rpms, it runs smooth. This happend after everything was cleaned AND the IAC + timing was set. I am suspicious to the timing (which I still have at 12°) because it did use to pop and shoot in the exhaust a couple of weeks ago before I bumped the timing from 9 to 15°.
What is the most likely cause of this? The timing or the high idle?
I have also seen on several occations now that right when I start the car it pops a Code 32 and sometimes also a Code 42. This ONLY happens right when it starts and then it goes away after a couple of minutes and remain gone...
gawd this pos is getting on my nerves. I've got a TON of programming homework that is due before springbreak and I havent even gotten started on it yet....argghhhhh
Ken
03-03-2002, 10:35 PM
#18
Senior Member
hang in there bro-its sunday nite 9pm and im at my shop scramblin to get some work out and finished too, if it makes you feel any better (probably not though) cuz tommorows comin fast-monday too. later
03-05-2002, 12:54 AM
#19
I've been driving it for a few days now - and it is acting really nice. I just need to get the idle down some, and I think I'll be set.
It has been down in the single digit temperature wise the last couple of days, and she starts right up and idles by itself, even though slightly high.
I have this feeling Im real close now!!
Ken
It has been down in the single digit temperature wise the last couple of days, and she starts right up and idles by itself, even though slightly high.
I have this feeling Im real close now!!
Ken
03-05-2002, 01:14 AM
#20
Senior Member
ken-read what i said about sneaking up on the idle speed a few posts up-only try it in reverse-back that screw out about 1/2 turn or little less-dont worry the ecm will take it and run with the new setting and settle in to a lower idle speed-try it-you dont have to do a min air drudgery adjust every time-plus if the iac is really zero thats going to take itself and possibly the ecm out. the iac motor is one of the few ecm inputs/outputs that if it fails it has the potential to fry the driver inside the ecm too. most circuits are worked via the ground side with the way the system is set up-not the iac-close the plates a bit even if its the ghetto way.
03-05-2002, 01:32 AM
#21
Oh okay - I'll give that a shot. It shouldn't need much, but it is a bit too high when it runs around 1000-1100 on warm engine. I'd like to get it down in the 750rpm are (in neutral).
I may have to readjust the TPS though, right? But that only takes a second anyways.
Thanks man - I'll let you know how it goes.
Ken
I may have to readjust the TPS though, right? But that only takes a second anyways.
Thanks man - I'll let you know how it goes.
Ken
03-05-2002, 08:08 PM
#23
I wonder when the he** Im gonna learn to shut my piehole!!
I should've never said yesterday that the car is running fine - 'cause it probably heard it and now it is running like sh!+ again.
It doesn't seem to run on all cylinders, and it runs a lot rougher than it used to before I cleaned up the TB/IAC passages?? It belongs to the story that I did set the timing down from 15 to 12°. Today I set it further down to 7° and it really doesn't run good at all. It is MUCH weaker than it was, it runs on 7 cylinders, have little pops and shoots in the exhaust, and it just doesn't sound healthy. It also has a much worse time starting when the engine is warm. What the hell is in this car? Must be someting mighty evil!!
I am tempted to set the timing back to 15° where it ran well and was much stronger than it has ever been.
Oh, and yes, I drove the car around a lot today to make sure it had re-learned.
zroc,
I set it at around 850 now. The cam specs are HERE
Ken <~~~can't wait to go to Florida next week and get a few states between himself and the pos car....
I should've never said yesterday that the car is running fine - 'cause it probably heard it and now it is running like sh!+ again.
It doesn't seem to run on all cylinders, and it runs a lot rougher than it used to before I cleaned up the TB/IAC passages?? It belongs to the story that I did set the timing down from 15 to 12°. Today I set it further down to 7° and it really doesn't run good at all. It is MUCH weaker than it was, it runs on 7 cylinders, have little pops and shoots in the exhaust, and it just doesn't sound healthy. It also has a much worse time starting when the engine is warm. What the hell is in this car? Must be someting mighty evil!!
I am tempted to set the timing back to 15° where it ran well and was much stronger than it has ever been.
Oh, and yes, I drove the car around a lot today to make sure it had re-learned.
zroc,
I set it at around 850 now. The cam specs are HERE
Ken <~~~can't wait to go to Florida next week and get a few states between himself and the pos car....
03-05-2002, 10:08 PM
#24
Supreme Member
Ken, before the cam change, had you ever set the timing to factory specs before? Just wondering if the original balancer on there has slipped...seems you're going backwards on progress since you set the timing back.
I'd say tune it the old fashioned way, bypass the knock sensor, keep advancing the timing (w/est bypass disconnected) a few degrees at a time (then reconnect bypass) and run it till you hear the ping, then (disconnect bypass) and back the timing off 2 degrees.
Reason I say this, I find it hard to believe a stock PROM would run well with a mild cam at 15-16* BTDC for base timing, without rattling like crazy. Once you find the sweetspot for the timing (as GGA said before) then read the plugs for A/F condition.
Also, you'd be suprised at how well a SBC/BBC will run with two plug wires swapped...go over them again for S's and G's.
Good luck, have a cold one, put the car down for a few weeks and hit the books.
I'd say tune it the old fashioned way, bypass the knock sensor, keep advancing the timing (w/est bypass disconnected) a few degrees at a time (then reconnect bypass) and run it till you hear the ping, then (disconnect bypass) and back the timing off 2 degrees.
Reason I say this, I find it hard to believe a stock PROM would run well with a mild cam at 15-16* BTDC for base timing, without rattling like crazy. Once you find the sweetspot for the timing (as GGA said before) then read the plugs for A/F condition.
Also, you'd be suprised at how well a SBC/BBC will run with two plug wires swapped...go over them again for S's and G's.
Good luck, have a cold one, put the car down for a few weeks and hit the books.
03-05-2002, 10:08 PM
#25
Moderator
Thread Starter
Ken,
Sorry that I can't remember if it has already been asked, but it's been a few days since this thing started. Do you have old fuel in the tank? Just another possible variable that could be causing some of these rogue problems.
Sorry that I can't remember if it has already been asked, but it's been a few days since this thing started. Do you have old fuel in the tank? Just another possible variable that could be causing some of these rogue problems.
03-05-2002, 10:26 PM
#26
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Well I havn't read the original post but from what i read here I get the gist of it...
My engine is all original (expcept bolt ons) and I'm experiencing the same problem. Idle shoots up to 2K on start up... falls off to 1100 and will stay that way... when in drive and when warm it'll go down to 850-900, but it really starts to sputter and miss badly. I thought it was my exhaust leaks but after rading this post I'm not too sure?
The car acts random, sometimes as power other times doesn't... everyone once in a while it'll throw a 34 at me on cold startup, I can shut it off and turn it back on and it'll be fine... 2 Mafs I'm going on now and it just gets worse...
I don't know where to go or what to say with this, but I figured I'd let you know you're not alone... let me know how you resolve this!
My engine is all original (expcept bolt ons) and I'm experiencing the same problem. Idle shoots up to 2K on start up... falls off to 1100 and will stay that way... when in drive and when warm it'll go down to 850-900, but it really starts to sputter and miss badly. I thought it was my exhaust leaks but after rading this post I'm not too sure?
The car acts random, sometimes as power other times doesn't... everyone once in a while it'll throw a 34 at me on cold startup, I can shut it off and turn it back on and it'll be fine... 2 Mafs I'm going on now and it just gets worse...
I don't know where to go or what to say with this, but I figured I'd let you know you're not alone... let me know how you resolve this!
03-05-2002, 10:27 PM
#27
Mike,
The car was run at about 9° before the cam swap. However, the stock balancer actually did slip, but it was replaced in August before any of the mods were added. The car ran perfectly fine then. The cam and the other mods were all done from early september through late november (the car was down for these swaps for a total of two-three months).
I agree with you - the timing is really odd, because when I initially had the problems the car would run kinda right sometimes, but after vader and gga got me straight with the vaccuum leak etc - I also bumped the timing to 15°'s and it felt like a completely new engine. Much stronger than it had ever run. The only problem was that it wouldn't idle right and I was not able to set the idle right due to the dirty IAC/TB, so that is what was taken care of last weekend. After taking off the TB and cleaning it well, it was reinstalled and the timing reduced to 12°s. The car did already feel different and not as strong. The car would start VERY easy - but idle too high. So today I was going to slow down the idle some more and set the timing to spec. It sounded so unhealthy when I reached 7°s that I stopped there. I've been running it quite a bit today and the car is a dog.
As for the plugs wires - I guarantee they are correct, because they have not been off since the car ran strong last week. I'll go over them though, as you say just for S's and G's.
Vader,
Nope as a matter of fact, I got the tank filled up today with fresh gas, and I have been using the car so I've filled it up at least every other week if not every week.
Ken
The car was run at about 9° before the cam swap. However, the stock balancer actually did slip, but it was replaced in August before any of the mods were added. The car ran perfectly fine then. The cam and the other mods were all done from early september through late november (the car was down for these swaps for a total of two-three months).
I agree with you - the timing is really odd, because when I initially had the problems the car would run kinda right sometimes, but after vader and gga got me straight with the vaccuum leak etc - I also bumped the timing to 15°'s and it felt like a completely new engine. Much stronger than it had ever run. The only problem was that it wouldn't idle right and I was not able to set the idle right due to the dirty IAC/TB, so that is what was taken care of last weekend. After taking off the TB and cleaning it well, it was reinstalled and the timing reduced to 12°s. The car did already feel different and not as strong. The car would start VERY easy - but idle too high. So today I was going to slow down the idle some more and set the timing to spec. It sounded so unhealthy when I reached 7°s that I stopped there. I've been running it quite a bit today and the car is a dog.
As for the plugs wires - I guarantee they are correct, because they have not been off since the car ran strong last week. I'll go over them though, as you say just for S's and G's.
Vader,
Nope as a matter of fact, I got the tank filled up today with fresh gas, and I have been using the car so I've filled it up at least every other week if not every week.
Ken
03-06-2002, 06:20 PM
#28
Okay,
The pos car is now officially out of business!
I bumped the timing back to 15 to see if it would catch on again - and it got just worse. It runs horrible and it shoots in the exhaust so Im afraid to drive it enough for the ECM to relearn as Im afraid I'll kill yet another cat.
I was thinking that it could be that there was a problem with my plugwires as it obviously is skipping at least one cylinder. So, I put on the wires that were previously on the car, but it was just the same.
I tried to check for vaccuum leaks again, worried that some new problem may have arrised, but found nothing.
I also pulled a couple of plugs to check them, but they looked good. BTW,
I don't have anymore time today to work on it as I have some programming assignments that have to be done by tomorrow.
A couple of new questions:
First, what do you all use for those tiny vaccuum hoses when you replace them? I would like to replace all of mine as they are real brittle, and I'd rather get rid of that source of error.
Second, what makes it throw a code 32 about every 2-3 times I start? It goes away shortly though.
Third, where the heck do I go from here??
Man, I've messed with cars for 12 years and I've always managed to figure out what's been going on when having a problem - but this one is in a class by itself....
Oh, one last thing - I have a digital camera that is capable of taking short mpeg videos. Of course the sound quality isn't all that - but would it be of any help for you guys if I try to capture how it runs??
Let me know, and once again - thanks a lot for any inputs on this d@mn alien..
Ken
The pos car is now officially out of business!
I bumped the timing back to 15 to see if it would catch on again - and it got just worse. It runs horrible and it shoots in the exhaust so Im afraid to drive it enough for the ECM to relearn as Im afraid I'll kill yet another cat.
I was thinking that it could be that there was a problem with my plugwires as it obviously is skipping at least one cylinder. So, I put on the wires that were previously on the car, but it was just the same.
I tried to check for vaccuum leaks again, worried that some new problem may have arrised, but found nothing.
I also pulled a couple of plugs to check them, but they looked good. BTW,
I don't have anymore time today to work on it as I have some programming assignments that have to be done by tomorrow.
A couple of new questions:
First, what do you all use for those tiny vaccuum hoses when you replace them? I would like to replace all of mine as they are real brittle, and I'd rather get rid of that source of error.
Second, what makes it throw a code 32 about every 2-3 times I start? It goes away shortly though.
Third, where the heck do I go from here??
Man, I've messed with cars for 12 years and I've always managed to figure out what's been going on when having a problem - but this one is in a class by itself....
Oh, one last thing - I have a digital camera that is capable of taking short mpeg videos. Of course the sound quality isn't all that - but would it be of any help for you guys if I try to capture how it runs??
Let me know, and once again - thanks a lot for any inputs on this d@mn alien..
Ken
03-06-2002, 09:52 PM
#29
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Hey man...
Go to your local parts store and find either "windshield washer hose" or "vacuum line"... they -should- have it, otherwise reconsider your choice of stores... OD DOES NOT MATTER in this case... pick the tubing that has the correct ID! it will make life easier. Buy more than you need, connect at one end, route as you go and cut it when you like how the line runs... this helps cut back on error ("Oh **** it's too short!")...
As for the MPEG... sure, take one, it certainly won't hurt and it'll give us all a better idea on what exactly is going on.
Good luck man, looks like your've got a fighter on your hands...
Go to your local parts store and find either "windshield washer hose" or "vacuum line"... they -should- have it, otherwise reconsider your choice of stores... OD DOES NOT MATTER in this case... pick the tubing that has the correct ID! it will make life easier. Buy more than you need, connect at one end, route as you go and cut it when you like how the line runs... this helps cut back on error ("Oh **** it's too short!")...
As for the MPEG... sure, take one, it certainly won't hurt and it'll give us all a better idea on what exactly is going on.
Good luck man, looks like your've got a fighter on your hands...
03-09-2002, 12:45 AM
#30
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Car: 87 IROC
Engine: LB9 for the moment
Transmission: T5
ChevyKen,
you really shouldn't have any problem with going back to the stock timing spec unless the outside ring of the balancer has slipped giving you a BS reading... can you get it to run smooth at all??? if you can double check carfully for vacuum leaks... follow all of the lines and recheck all sealing surfaces... if you take that video put a vacuum guage on it and try to show the readings (this might not work very well but its worth a try... if it doesn't come out very well note the action of the guage (reading as well as what it varies to and when and how often...
zroc
you really shouldn't have any problem with going back to the stock timing spec unless the outside ring of the balancer has slipped giving you a BS reading... can you get it to run smooth at all??? if you can double check carfully for vacuum leaks... follow all of the lines and recheck all sealing surfaces... if you take that video put a vacuum guage on it and try to show the readings (this might not work very well but its worth a try... if it doesn't come out very well note the action of the guage (reading as well as what it varies to and when and how often...
zroc
03-09-2002, 01:34 AM
#31
Xenodrgn,
Thanks for the tip on the hose - I'll check there tomorrow!!
I'll get the movie tomorrow as well - hope the sound will be good enough to be helpful.
zroc,
It started acting funky after the resetting of the timing - but now it is all ****ed up. I haven't been able to drive the car the last 3 days. Is there anyway I can check if the outide ring has slipped? Like the timing mark's position in relation to the notch for the lock?
I will try to find some hoses to replace all the vaccuum lines with tomorrow. I'll also check the condition of the distributor cap / rotor - because right now it seems more like a spark problem than anything else to me. I had the plugs out today to check them, but they looked okay - but when I tried to start, it would run but VERY poor, and it was very obvious that it was skipping at least one or more cylinders. It sounded more like an old tractor!
I'll get the movie file tomorrow for sure.
I hope getting it at least to a condition where it is operative again this weekend so that I can move the car over to my in-laws where I can stand in the garage.
Ken
Thanks for the tip on the hose - I'll check there tomorrow!!
I'll get the movie tomorrow as well - hope the sound will be good enough to be helpful.
zroc,
It started acting funky after the resetting of the timing - but now it is all ****ed up. I haven't been able to drive the car the last 3 days. Is there anyway I can check if the outide ring has slipped? Like the timing mark's position in relation to the notch for the lock?
I will try to find some hoses to replace all the vaccuum lines with tomorrow. I'll also check the condition of the distributor cap / rotor - because right now it seems more like a spark problem than anything else to me. I had the plugs out today to check them, but they looked okay - but when I tried to start, it would run but VERY poor, and it was very obvious that it was skipping at least one or more cylinders. It sounded more like an old tractor!
I'll get the movie file tomorrow for sure.
I hope getting it at least to a condition where it is operative again this weekend so that I can move the car over to my in-laws where I can stand in the garage.
Ken
03-09-2002, 05:15 PM
#32
Man, Im litterally about to give up on this car now. This really is ridiculous...
I've been outside trying to figure it out today (it's ****ing freezing out there, temp dropped 40°'s since last night!) - and the thing wont start at all now. It ran for about 5 seconds and that was on no more than 3-4 cylinders.
I have replaced all the vaccuum lines now, I've tried different plug wires, I've had the plugs out and cleaned them, I've tried another coil, and another rotor - but it is just not responding to anything anymore.
I was going to get a little video file today, but it won't run enough for me to get out of the car and start the camera.
Im at a total loss now - and have absolutely zero idea where to look next.
What I don't understand is that this last quirk happend after the TB/IAC was off to be cleaned. What the hell could have gone wrong...??
Ken
I've been outside trying to figure it out today (it's ****ing freezing out there, temp dropped 40°'s since last night!) - and the thing wont start at all now. It ran for about 5 seconds and that was on no more than 3-4 cylinders.
I have replaced all the vaccuum lines now, I've tried different plug wires, I've had the plugs out and cleaned them, I've tried another coil, and another rotor - but it is just not responding to anything anymore.
I was going to get a little video file today, but it won't run enough for me to get out of the car and start the camera.
Im at a total loss now - and have absolutely zero idea where to look next.
What I don't understand is that this last quirk happend after the TB/IAC was off to be cleaned. What the hell could have gone wrong...??
Ken
03-10-2002, 02:44 AM
#33
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Car: 87 IROC
Engine: LB9 for the moment
Transmission: T5
maybe the car is jealous of you spending time with your woman... has she been saying bad things about the car??? don't forget women are easily replaceble but a good loyal car is hard to find...
just kidding...
you might have the right idea about spark now being the issue... it almost sonds like you either have plug AFU or the pick-up coil took a ****... I wish I could garantee thats whats up but at any rate its worth checking...
zroc
just kidding...
you might have the right idea about spark now being the issue... it almost sonds like you either have plug AFU or the pick-up coil took a ****... I wish I could garantee thats whats up but at any rate its worth checking...
zroc
03-10-2002, 03:05 AM
#34
Senior Member
is the tach showing signs of bouncybouncy when you crank 'er over ? are the injectors pulsing-that oughta be fun disconnecting a connector at an injector in the freezing nastiness. did you ever verify an original ign.module? have you tried starting it with black and tan wire disconnected? same for maf connector
03-10-2002, 12:10 PM
#35
zroc,
Actually, my wife is very supportive
Are there any ways to verify if the pickup coil is bad? I actually replaced it before - but that has been at least a couple of years, so that doesn't mean it can't be bad again.
gga,
Im not sure about the tach, nor the injectors. How can I check if the injectors are getting puls? Just use the voltmeter on one of the connectors?
I didn't verify the ignition module as original, but I doubt it is - because it was bought at AutoZone!
I have not tried to start with the black/tan wire nor the maf disconnected.
Im headed out right now and will try all of the above, and get back to ya'
Thx,
Ken
Actually, my wife is very supportive
Are there any ways to verify if the pickup coil is bad? I actually replaced it before - but that has been at least a couple of years, so that doesn't mean it can't be bad again.
gga,
Im not sure about the tach, nor the injectors. How can I check if the injectors are getting puls? Just use the voltmeter on one of the connectors?
I didn't verify the ignition module as original, but I doubt it is - because it was bought at AutoZone!
I have not tried to start with the black/tan wire nor the maf disconnected.
Im headed out right now and will try all of the above, and get back to ya'
Thx,
Ken
03-10-2002, 12:30 PM
#36
Okay,
quick update:
* The tach is kinda bouncing, it goes up from 0 to about 500 while cranking.
* It would not start without the MAF disconnected
* It would not start with the blk/tan wire disconnected
* I believe the injectors get pulse, because I hear a "gurgling" noise in there after cranking, and the fuel pump starts again to keep the pressure.
* Also just verified that I have spark, although I'd like for it to be a little bigger.
Edit:
Okay, I've found one possible problem. One of the screws in the dist. cap that holds the coil and that also holds the ground wire, was loose as the hole is worn out. Im gonna run and get a new cap/rotor, and will let you know what happens.
Oh, and GGA, I also took out the ign. module again and put in the old one as it wasn't bad in the first place (was the ecm, remember), and they are both Wells modules.
Ken
quick update:
* The tach is kinda bouncing, it goes up from 0 to about 500 while cranking.
* It would not start without the MAF disconnected
* It would not start with the blk/tan wire disconnected
* I believe the injectors get pulse, because I hear a "gurgling" noise in there after cranking, and the fuel pump starts again to keep the pressure.
* Also just verified that I have spark, although I'd like for it to be a little bigger.
Edit:
Okay, I've found one possible problem. One of the screws in the dist. cap that holds the coil and that also holds the ground wire, was loose as the hole is worn out. Im gonna run and get a new cap/rotor, and will let you know what happens.
Oh, and GGA, I also took out the ign. module again and put in the old one as it wasn't bad in the first place (was the ecm, remember), and they are both Wells modules.
Ken
Last edited by ChevyKen; 03-10-2002 at 01:21 PM.
03-10-2002, 06:26 PM
#37
Senior Member
ok so we got a reference pulse. sorry we gotta go back down the line here but to not do it in a certain order is to bark up a wrong tree, possibly. fuel pressure is the next check when you get a chance.
03-10-2002, 07:34 PM
#38
puhhh,
it finally started and ran enough that I could get it moved over to my in-laws garage.
It the start came after I had put in the new cap/rotor +the old ign. module. First it didn't start, but I figured the plugs were soaked after trying to start it for so long. So, after drying them off it eventually started, but ONLY when I kept the throttle floored. It would not start if I left my foot off the throttle - if that gives any indication.
Well, Im going to give you all a break (as well as myself) as Im headed of to Orlando bright and early in the morning.
So, next chapter in the never-ending saga of "ChevyKen & the Roc", will be sometime after friday.
Maybe a clear mind will help some
Edit: BTW gga, the fuel pressure is nice and steady so that should be okay.
Ken
it finally started and ran enough that I could get it moved over to my in-laws garage.
It the start came after I had put in the new cap/rotor +the old ign. module. First it didn't start, but I figured the plugs were soaked after trying to start it for so long. So, after drying them off it eventually started, but ONLY when I kept the throttle floored. It would not start if I left my foot off the throttle - if that gives any indication.
Well, Im going to give you all a break (as well as myself) as Im headed of to Orlando bright and early in the morning.
So, next chapter in the never-ending saga of "ChevyKen & the Roc", will be sometime after friday.
Maybe a clear mind will help some
Edit: BTW gga, the fuel pressure is nice and steady so that should be okay.
Ken
03-15-2002, 11:45 PM
#40
Moderator
Thread Starter
Ken,
Welcome back to the cool midwest. I trust you had a good trip.
Have you tried starting it since you returned? It may have dried out by now. The cap/rotor obviously helped, but you certainly still have issues.
I almost hate to suggest it, but this thread is getting long again. Maybe it's time to throw in a couple of reference links and start another one with a summary. Several of us have a good history on the problem, and you have already elimintaed a lot of possibilities.
You should test the pickup coil resistance and closely inspect the reluctor/interruptor ring. the pickup coil should have between 500-1,500 ohms resistance across the leads, and infinite resistance to ground from either lead. Resistance out of spec or ground leakage will wreak havoc with the reference pulses and HEI switching. A reluctor that is cracked or excessively rusty may not be generating a sharp signal or cutoff with teh pickup coil. If there is a capacitor in the base of the distributor, disconnect and test the resistance of that as well. Let me know how that one goes since the readings should be a little "strange".
I'll be out most of the day tomorrow, but I'll check in when I return. Grump, Z-Roc, and Xeno may have you going by then anyway.
Look on the bright side - it's supposed to rain here tomorrow, and your car is in the garage now so you can laugh at the weather
Welcome back to the cool midwest. I trust you had a good trip.
Have you tried starting it since you returned? It may have dried out by now. The cap/rotor obviously helped, but you certainly still have issues.
I almost hate to suggest it, but this thread is getting long again. Maybe it's time to throw in a couple of reference links and start another one with a summary. Several of us have a good history on the problem, and you have already elimintaed a lot of possibilities.
You should test the pickup coil resistance and closely inspect the reluctor/interruptor ring. the pickup coil should have between 500-1,500 ohms resistance across the leads, and infinite resistance to ground from either lead. Resistance out of spec or ground leakage will wreak havoc with the reference pulses and HEI switching. A reluctor that is cracked or excessively rusty may not be generating a sharp signal or cutoff with teh pickup coil. If there is a capacitor in the base of the distributor, disconnect and test the resistance of that as well. Let me know how that one goes since the readings should be a little "strange".
I'll be out most of the day tomorrow, but I'll check in when I return. Grump, Z-Roc, and Xeno may have you going by then anyway.
Look on the bright side - it's supposed to rain here tomorrow, and your car is in the garage now so you can laugh at the weather
03-16-2002, 01:26 AM
#41
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Car: 87 IROC
Engine: LB9 for the moment
Transmission: T5
Hey Ken,
I am wondering if this might be a new prob... first, have you double checked for vacuum leaks (yes again) whats the timing at now??? GGA mentioned fuel pressure (what is it vacuum on and off and max pressure check)... seems like when you started messing with the distributor it all went to sh*t again...
since you have been gone I have lost one car gained one that I have to do some repairs on and my T/A doesn't want to shift and is having fuel delivery problems that I have not had a chance to diag just yet...
any how welcome back
zroc
I am wondering if this might be a new prob... first, have you double checked for vacuum leaks (yes again) whats the timing at now??? GGA mentioned fuel pressure (what is it vacuum on and off and max pressure check)... seems like when you started messing with the distributor it all went to sh*t again...
since you have been gone I have lost one car gained one that I have to do some repairs on and my T/A doesn't want to shift and is having fuel delivery problems that I have not had a chance to diag just yet...
any how welcome back
zroc
03-16-2002, 10:58 AM
#42
Guys,
I started a new thread as suggested by Vader, and it is located here:
https://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/sho...threadid=92402
The saga continues...
Ken
I started a new thread as suggested by Vader, and it is located here:
https://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/sho...threadid=92402
The saga continues...
Ken
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