Right now, i am in the middle of swapping my 260,000 mile 2.8 for a brand new 3.4 (bored 30 over with a not so mild cam). My plan was this

3.4L Block
Same heads
Same intake (ported the intake some)
2004r (thinking of keeping 700r4 now)
4.10 (replacing the 3.42's i have now)
Twin turbo (this will be much later)

We've gutted most of the engine bay. Getting ready to pull the 2.8 block on saturday. Was wondering what your thoughts were on my little project. The twin turbo's will be a nice addition and I expect 475+hp afterwards.

I have a few questions. Should I port my heads? I ported the intake and the fuel rail. What size injectors should i use for the 3.4, and where can I find a new wiring harness for everything. I dont want to use the old one, it is worn and brittle. Also, can anyone point out a location for headers? Any other tips or additional information would be helpful. This is my very first project so take it easy one me.

BTW: For those of you who insist on running V8's and think that everyone else should, I'm trying to be different and have fun, not run low 9's at the 1/4.

Thanks!

 

i dont think youll be able to get 475 hp out of the 3.4. there is a guy on another website who has about the toughest 3.4 ive seen and hes got 336hp at the rear wheels. i dont know a ton about turbos yet, but from what i do know, youd be better off running a single turbo on that engine. there are others on here that may be more helpful w/ the turbo idea than me.

yes port the heads, if done right, nothing but advantage.

headers are being worked on by pacesetter i believe. there is a big post on this topic, just do a search for it.

when you said same heads, you meant 3.4 heads right? not the 2.8 heads?

 

same 2.8 heads. And no, it is better to run two turbo's on the 'V' motor's, read the article in Hot Rod magazine (i think thats it) on "How to turbo any engine".

I'm looking to get 200HP from my 3.4 with out turbo's. I'm still not sure if I will get around to the tubo's, but I am going to be crazy about my camaro, no moderate "daily driver" crap. Even though I will be using it for driving to work, and around town. I have a 97 honda for long distance

 

use the 3.4 heads, and yes, port them

headers, see the top of this forum, a private company already makes them.

I would go with a heavy duty 700r4, or swap to manual

harness, try car-part.com, or email Brandon at camaromotorsports@cablelynx.com and see if he has one. Tell him jay from sherwood referenced you.

injectors, go with the bosch/ford design, here is the formula to figure size.

n/a
(est hp x .50) / (injector qty x .80) = lb rating

boosted
(est hp x .60) / (injector qty x .80) = lb rating.

If you est your hp reasonably, this should dial yourself in fairly close.

 

Thanks for the formula. My estimates figure 20lbs, but would it urt if I got 20lbs and I only needed 17?

Also, I've seen everyone complain about their 700R4 tranny "dying" because of the added power, what BS! They die because they do not set them back up correctly.

I work for Bowtie Overdrvies, we specialize in 700R4/2004R transmissions and we have no problems putting our level 1 700r4 to 350hp/tq. Our level 1 is basically a factory rebuild with minor upgrades and we only use series 3 700r4's (88-92). But your tranny can handle power from a loppy V6, give me a break. The 700r4 that came in the V6 models ARE THE SAME TRANNY AS THE V8 MODELS except for the size of the case. If you get a 700r4 from a junk yard, you have a better chance of it dying yes, but you can kill a brand new 700r4 by not setting it up correctly. The TV cable is critical and must be setup correctly to attain proper operating pressures.

Sorry, that's just my little rant. Also, about the 3.4 heads, whats the difference between them and the 2.8 heads? I've been told my many sources that they are the same.

 

Stock 3.4 is 17lbs, and if your doing cam and other things, you will need more. IF your running to much, it will run rich, and fowl plugs, and not have peak power.

I have heard that the 2004r's are junk, and prime tranny for us v6's is a nicely setup 88-92 700r4. To each their own. I know the spline output on the shaft is different between us and a v8 too.

2.8/3.1-3.4 heads. The inside and main setup is the same. However, where the springs sit on the 3.4 has a tad bit more meat. Makes it so you can install larger and better springs.

 

Well, I just talked to PFE and I've changed my plan, I'm going to get a set of heads already ported and polished and ready for turbo setup, and a set of their headers, then I'm going to get my turbo and they will build a setup for me. I will change my gears later.

Thanks for all the info.

 

you might make 200 hp out of a n/a 3.4 but it will be at the crank...it will be very hard to make 200 hp at the rear wheels running n/a. what cam are you looking at?? i'd like to compare it to what i'm running.

 

http://www.engine-parts.com/GMV6/gm2834stkr.html

This is where i'm getting my motor, i talked to them and they said their stage 2 cam is popular, but i didnt tell them I was going with a turbo.

I talked to PFE and they said that with their heads and their headers, the power rating on the motor will reach the rear wheels. In other words, the improvments they make will compensate for the drain of HP in the drive train.

 

i really don't want to sound rude or anything but if you want 200 hp at the crank even, you need a bigger cam than the stage 2 that's in that motor.

2.8-3.4 stroker? is that all stroke or is the block punch out to a standard 3.4 bore too? interesting...

edit: i guess i can't say that 200 hp isn't possible but it will take quite a bit of tuning to make it run that strong.

 

I belive the block is bored & stroked. The crank maybe offset ground for longer stroke.

BTW, 88_Import_Slaye, told ya you'd get some more help over here

 

Wait, project brought you here? I retract all my statements


j/k buddy.

 

Yeah, he posted in the engine swap forum, & I steered him away from all the "Just drop a V8 " responses

As for my statement on the stroker motor, I really don't know much about it, so take it as a "talking out my a$$" deal . Just contact the complany & get the scoop.

 

The 3.4 is stroked and has a bigger bore, a 3.1 is a stroked 2.8. Plus, the company i'm getting the block from will bore the cylinders to any size (within reason) but they normally do 30 over, so this is what i'm going to get probably. I'm going to be ridiculous in this since it's a "get me to work" and "play on the way home" car.

My goal is to get 200hp at the rear wheels and i willg et there. I was thinking of a better cam, any recommendations? I know jack about cams.

The only thing i'm worried about is traction, with the 3.06:1 first gear of my 700r4 and 4.10's in the back, that thing aint going to grip off the line. This is why I was thinking of going to a 2004r since the 1st gear is 2.74:1, it wont be so aggressive. I ran some calculations that we use to inform our customers of the benefits of an overdrive in their car over a 3 speed and i will be running 2800 RPM at 70mph in 4th which I wont mind. Stock i ran 3000 RPM at 100mph. With no cat, my milage wont be any worse than my stock setup with a cat.

I talked to the guy at PFE about the headers, he told me he did the swap in his firebird(?) and he dynoed it at 200hp at rear wheels and he has a setup thats a little tamer than what i plan, so we will see. I'm going to buy their headers and have them port/polish/rebuild me heads, he said with those modifications, the improvment in HP/TQ will compensate for the drain from the drivetrain. Either way, my goal is 200hp and eventually i'm going to get a turbo and try to reach 450hp. I will need to spend some more $$ to get it setup for the turbo, but i wont mind later on.

 

you will have to set it up to run either na or turbo...if you want it to be strong na....with the cam you'll need, you will also need high compression. high compression on a turbo-ed motor is a problem. if you run low compression with a big cam, it'll kinda pethetic. that car at pfe i think has had (i could be wrong) extensive tuning on the computer. i am running 4.10s in my car...traction is almost non-existent on the street. i would stick with the 700r4 but go with a 3.73 gear or something. with the 4.10, 70 mph is more like 3100 rpms with a 235/60/15 tire on the back (mine now). what cam to run all depends on where you want your power...if its a 'get me to work everyday' car, the cam you'd need to make 200 hp at the rear tires would be rather large...ok, HUGE. you would probably get about 8-10 mpg with 4.10s and the stall convertor you'd need.

PS that large of a cam to make it run like that N/A would most likely not be a good cam for a turbo...too much duration. you could always shoot for a really torque motor and leave a set of 3.23 gears in it for traction and top speed. a torque cam would probably do good on a turbo (maybe).

 

when we do your heads we can get a custom cam ground off of the flow numbers they make this way everything matches but it will be different for the turbo. actually you miss quoted me about the rear wheel hp i made. it did 140 at the wheels with my stage 1 heads, headers, 19# ford injectors and a custom chip on a mustang dyno which usually shows a lot less than dynojets. this was all on a well worn out 170,000 mile 3.1 motor with 87 octane fuel. it is making more power now with a revised chip but has not been dynoed since.
hey since you work at bowtie overdrives i am wondering what the best upgrades are. also i have heard the internals are different on the v6, smaller drums and such.

 

good luck getting 475hp without forged pistons, those ARI motors come with cast pistons.

and the PFE, Pacesetter and Hooker headers wont work with a turbo, unless you are planning on doing a remote mounted setup.

An NA motor and a Turbo motor are two entirely different beast's, you cant build a great NA motor, throw a tubo on it and expect it to perform good. Decide what you are going to do first, and what is your final goal.

 

I have a defined goal already, get my N/A motor to get the most at rear wheel. I know that with a turbo i'll have to change a lot of things, cam, pistons etc, read my previous post. I might not even get to a turbo with this car, i'm not sure. but if i do it's a future thing.

Right now a turbo setup is just not in my price range. I'm running 215-65-15 tires (26.00 tall) and my calcs are correct for my tire. Your tire is a 26.10 tall tire, so i know mine wont stick if yours dont. I will most likley have to get a taller tire, maybe 27.00 tall. or something wider like 285-50-15? I'm going to be replacing the torque arm and pan hard bar, that might help tracking some what.

As for the PFE guy, it seems i shot my mouth off on that one. I got a little excited talking to you about the headers and heads As far as the "upgrades" go, what are you looking for? A new tranny or what? The upgrades we do are internal when we build them.

MY main goal like i said is to get the most from my n/a motor. I had wanted to go with twin turbo setup, I was going to have my engineere build custom exhaust, but after talking to PFE, i decided 1 turbo would suffice for my needs if I do go with a turbo. With a rumpy cam, i'll probably have to go with a 2200 stall converter, i think i have a 1600-1800 right now (dont remember).

Thanks for all of your help and info and comments and critisisms, etc. Any more tips on what I can do to get more from my n/a motor would be nice. What do you think about underdrive pulley's? also, can I use my 2.8 ECM? will it be 'ok' until I get a new one? I had planned on getting mine from fastchip, any tip's on that?

 

Underdrive pullys are fine unless you plan on installing alot of electronics. Make sure the alt is good, and running at optimal performance before installing them.

The blet guide on asp's site, I found to be wrong, and I had to drop down 1 size, I maybe drop down 2 sizes next time.

Your ecm will run "about" anything. Now thats not saying it will run right, and optimal performance. Ods are, you do anything after more then what I have done on my car currently (copy my link in siggy, not the www button) and you need to start having a custom chip. This is where my back is against the wall now, no knowledge, lack of funds, and equipment.

OTC chips are deamed bad. They dont take into consideration your exact mods, elevation, and driving habits.

 

I have a brand new 120amp alt so no prob there. I'm planning to have an MSD coil (and MSD ignition box too) along with a nice stereo system (either 600 or 1000 watts, prob 600) and that's about it for electronics besides the normal stuff like lights.

As far as the chip, does anyone else have any good tips?

 

if your going to run a 600-1000 amp, dont do pullys. I had a 400 on my truck, hit a deep tone, and lights would go dim. Standard noise level, no major bass notes, It did fine.

 

Ok. Now I have a question about the suspension, didnt my 88 come with front and rear sway bars? Why do people say they put in sway bars? The 3rg gen Camaro suspension was supposed to be a little worse than the corvette suspension from the factory. Whats the deal with that?

Also, I want to replace all the bushings in the front and rear, i've looked for complete kits, but no one has a 'complete' kits. I found a front end rebuild kit, but they looked like cheap bushings. I was looking at energy suspension bushings. We deal with their trans mounts and they are really nice. Can you give me a run down of what bushings i'll need?

Thanks.

 

that should really be asked in suspension forum, but since they dont sometimes tend to our "piddly" v6 questions.

Yes, it should (95% sure) have come with 30/32 front, and 18 rear (really depends on rpo/ordering).

They more then likely upgraded as did I. Be aware that what v8 people run, is not what us v6 people should run due to front end weight. I found (was told from a banned memeber) that 34 front, and 24 rear is a balanced set. He was right, I love it.

Full bushing set, ES should make one, but will be pricy. Also look for "del-a-lum" or something like that.

 

your car came with sway bars! but there probroly small you can upgrade the handiling by swaping bigger ones out. also to upgrade your handiling get 16 in wheels and tires z rated. summit and spohn sells front end rebild kits polyurithane. it gunna cost ya like 130$ i would recoment new struts and shocks and new strut mounts. dont start on the suspention untill you have a lot of time and money. becose it easist to do it all at once.

 

I already have new tokico (?) struts special for lowered cars and new eiboch springs, lowered 1.75". I read an articel in chevy high performance (current issue) and they do some suspension upgrades and those are exactly what they put on their 3rd gen except they used springs that dropped like 1.5" (aprox).

I only have the lowered springs in front, i like the "*** in the air" look like hot rods have. In the back I have a set of decent shocks.

 

while both of are headers won't work with a turbo. the driver side will. this will be done so anyone who already bought headers from me won't have to spend as much money should they decide to go turbo.

the transmission. i just was curious as to all that you guys do different compared to stock . such as adding more clutches to the 3-4 clutch pack drilling bigger holes in the spacer plate etc. i have rebuilt and done mild upgrades on v8 transmissions so doing it myself is no problem i just want to do everything i can to handle the extra torque the turbo will produce.

i can get you a chip to match the heads and the headers but i would really need scanner feedback with the cam to fully optimize it.

 

Hope they are getting you a 3.4 block.
The 3.4 heads have more meat in valve spring pockets, due to a larger spring used in 3.4 heads.
Getting the power ya seek, shouldn't be too hard.
How easy it can be done is world of difference.
This 60*V6 is also going into the new 2005 Caddy & making more power. Study how they did it, then dupe GM engineers efforts.

 

the motor in the caddy is completely different. all aluminum block and heads piston oil jets, four cams all with variable valve timing variable intake track etc etc. now the new 3.5 in the chevy malibu is related to our motors.

 

Was your information from the Detroit Auto Show?
For what I've seen & read, it's our 60* V6 mill, updated.
That's about all I can deduce.
I saw a 2005 Caddy cruising by my place in Van Nuys, CA.
I admit not being able to obtain exact 2005 3.5/3.6 60* V6 details, none offered from what I've read (Car Craft & Autoweek)