Hey guys, I currently got a 3.1 V6 w 241k miles and am planning to do an upgrade to a V8. I have been looking and going back & forth from SBC to LS1 V8's. Anyways, while looking I found a good lead on a complete 3.8 Turbo from a 86-87 Buick GN.

Complete 3.8L (109 block) needs rebuilt
Turbo, Manifolds (needs rebuilt)
Kenne Bell upper intake & TB
Aftermarket Chip in PCM
PCM & Harness
Full Accessories

all this for $1k. Is that a good deal? I'm probably going to pick it up regardless but was wondering what a starting negotiating price should be??

After this, I would need a;
Tranny?
Fuel system upgrade
lots of DIY fab work
paitence!!

I would be putting in my 90 Firebird. any opinions are greatly accepted!!!

 

$1k is a good deal in my opinion, yes you will need a 90 degree (V8) transmission and custom motor mounts.
What's stopping you from keeping the 60 degree platfom and going turbo with it?

 

Well, I guess nothing. I am a V8 person myself though just thought a 3.8 turbo would be cool. plus me 3.1/700r4 is shot and I dont want to sink money into that combo.

 

Actually you could use the TTA motor mounts. The heads aren't going to fit under the hood. There's a sticky here somewhere on this, and yes the turbo 3.8 would be cool.

 

I read that thread you talk about firstfirebird. I believe it said you could but have to completly delete the A/C or switch to FWD heads like the TTA. Do you think I could use some latemodel heads 90's FWD?

I really dont know but we got a few FWD Engines lying around at work (couple of Supercharged ones too.) I know I'd have to drop compression more w/ these heads. Im unsure of FWD Supercharged heads. Thanks for the input guys. He sent me some pics and it also includes the stock GN Intercooler.

Does anybody got some good turbo sites that have some info on the 3.8 turbo?? Thanks

 

http://www.turbobuick.com/

Theres another couple I cant think of right now but thats about as good as any.

You can make crazy power from the turbo 3.8 I was considering it my self for a while, but money is somthing I dont have. it was cheaper and easyer to just go with a 3.1 and turbo it (still a work in progress) for the trans I would look for a good 200-4r thats what they TTA and the GN used. (there was also a rare turbo trans am with a 301 V8)

 

thanks for the link. Ive been there before but couldnt seem to find it again!!

 

I REALLY REALLY wish this myth would get stopped RIGHT now, I see way too many people buy into this old idea that the static compression ratio has to be dropped to run boost or more boost, it does not and you're only limiting yourself in the end.

IMO it's better to run a higher SCR and less boost (if needed) and have a MUCH more drivable combination, that's more efficiant overall, and will most likely make more power at a lower PSIG boost setting than a same combination with a lower SCR.

Just curious why people are saying that the RWD heads won't "fit under the hood"?

The FWD heads are much better anyway, flow better and were a better casting IIRC. One of the owners at the engine shop I use has a turbo regal (drool) and was showing me the heads he has to put on his regal, and compared them to some RWD heads he had too, and the difference was quite a bit.

 

Agree with the SCR thing, but don't know if there is a difference in combustion chambers on the FWD vs RWD heads (possably what cabech meant). There's a couple of people here making the swap, the different size heads caused come clearance problems - don't know for sure, bit I looked into the swap before I saw some others using the 3.1 for boost.

 

Double checked, the combustion chambers on the FWD heads are smaller (similar to the FWD vs RWD 60*). It isn't the hood clearance, the width is the problem.
Here's more info...
https://www.thirdgen.org/buick-3.8L-turbo-engine-swap-f-body

 

You getting all that for a grand? Sounds damn good. Comes with coil pack, injectors, fuel rail, everything? That would be a really good deal.
Rebuilding a 200r4 will cost you more then rebuilding a V8 700r4. A turbo 350 or 400 would bolt up too. If your on a budget and don't need OD.
I hope you got a posi in that Bird!
Better plan on sub-frame connectors too!
Going to need a scan tool, so you don't blow up the new engine......scanmaster 2.1($250new)
Need to rebuilt engine & rebuild/buy a turbo. And you want to get that engine rebuilt by a guy that knows buicks.
Then your going to want to mod the crap out of it.....trust me you will get the itch.
The list could go on and it will once you get into it.
Not trying to discourage you, but this could end up costing you a lot more then you think. It would probably be just as cheap or cheaper in the long run to just buy a TTA or Turbo Buick.
Check out the sites and post questions, the pros will tell you what it will cost you by the time your done:
www.turbobuicks.com
www.turbobuick.com <-- most people are on this one(Post in the hybird forum/these guys have done what you want to do)
www.gnttype.org
www.t6p.com
Just my .02 cents.....Nick.

 

Yeah, it comes complete. Im buying it off a Hi-po shop owner in Cinci. I know its gonna cost some money. He suggested on doing the rebuilds so Im probably going to agree with him. Im picking it up tomorrow(Monday) He said it is set up to go 11.9's in a GN. He said the car was in bad shape so he pulled it & never put it towards something else.

I used to build 6.5 diesel engines and now work at a buick dealership. I think I could build it w/ some pointers on how to make more power on a Buick. Im most likely going to use the TH350 from my brother. Any Idea on what frame mounts to use? Would I have to get a new d/s and should I use a Long or short tailshaft tranny? Oh yeah, The car has a rear end, suspension, and aluminum d/s from an 01' WS6. I think it'll suffice for a while. Yeah, Im def looking into SFC's too.

One more thing, Is the scanmaster just like a GM Tech 1? Is it just used to moniter the engine? I dont really know about that. Oh yeah, thanks for all the info.
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Yep, Ive done some searching and to use the GN heads I have to use a non AC heater box(1LE). Thats what I'm going to do. I'm picking up the engine tomorrow.

 

dammit, I knew your screen name was familiar. dfb FTW!!!!!

 

Yes, Dayton F Body. Sir!! I'm digging deep to get this combo off of Scott. Im getting excited to do it, gonna start buying necessary parts next month. Hoorah GI Bill!!

 

I thought that early 3.8's used the bop bellhousing, and the later used the 60* bellhousing.

 

What year was the gen II 3.8?

EDIT : Cabech is starting with a 60* tranny but said it is shot, so it doesn't matter anyways.

 

I know the FWD 3.8's use a 60 degree style transmission. The TH200r4 came in 90 degree only I thought. Gen II came out in like 95 or 96 I think.

 

the RWD buick 3.8 could use a chevy or buick V8 trans IIRC. it was setup for either (or was it the 200-4r that would work on either V8?)

the FWD 3.8s used the 60* bellhouse I think. the series 2 mades its debut in 95 I think?

 

the 200-4r could be had w/B-O-P, chevy, or both set ups. Not sure which cars had which, buif one could find a back issue of High Performance Pontiac, they did a spread on adding the 200=4r into teh older cars, so you could have overdrive w/your monster blocks. they also did a pice on beefing it up to handle the 400/455 power.

 

The stock GN 3.8s use the BOP pattern, as the 200r4s were BOP. The monte carlo had the 200r4 with chevy pattern. You can get an adapter plate to hook up the chevy trannys. Otherwise find a BOP turbo 350. The 700r4 out of a v6 car will not work, has a smaller case. If you go with a 350 tranny, do a search on www.turbobuick.com , they all recomend changing the first gear to a different ratio to work better with the turbo 3.8........I don't remember off hand. Could probably find a guy on this site that is running a 350 tranny and find out with tail shaft it is and driveshaft. But, I don't know how the 3.8 would sit in the engine compartment compared to a 350 engine?
A scanmaster will give you everything you would need to know. 02 counts, X-counts, temp, knock retard, volts, etc. Not familar with the GM thing, but I did use a OTC2000 in the past.......was slow, but gave ya what you needed. http://www.fullthrottlespeed.com/itemdesc~CartId~{B42A7E9EVERESTE-1562-4860-87F6-42D7AEC920EC}~ic~050SCAN2GN~eq~~Tp~.htm
11.9 on a stock turbo and injectors? Must have been planning on alky injection or straight race gas.
Sounds like you got most of your build planned out. If you can get everything you need for $1000 then you are going to be way ahead of most people that do this swap.

 

IIRC, the TTA uses a Cylinder head from a FWD Lesabre of the same year. The 3.8T heads use a shaft mount rockers and FWD heads use single rocker type. I am using the stock RWD heads. In order to do so you have to get a 1LE heater box or modify the stocker, b/c the head interferes w/ it. Ive also heard that its hard to route the AC Lines if you choose to keep it. They'll fit under the hood though!!!

I dont really care about AC since it isnt my DD. For that matter, I dont care about heat either b/c Im not driving it in the winters .

 

I dunno if thats the case or not, I'm just going on that its a stock engine w/ a few boltons!!

Im probably going to mock up the mounts w/ the engine & tranny. A guy on Turbobuick used the engine/tranny from a GN and stock tpi trans mount. He used the F body Driveshaft and layed the engine in w/ trans, lined up the trans mount, marked the 3.8 mount placement and made new holes on the K member. I'll likely just tack them in place. He made it work w/ the Fbody DS. That should keep the custom driveshaft costs down!!

 

Since all the crossmembers mount in the same place on the thirdgens, wouldn't that mean the back of all the motors are in the same place?
Wouldn't you feel better with tacks and bolts?

 

Yeah, tacks and bolts will be better, Im probably going to weld around the whole mount. My bro did it in his Firebird and it worked well in his. There are 2 sets of holes, 60 degree V6 & 90 degree V8. I dont know which to use. Plus, the length of a th200r4, I think is a bit shorter than a 700r4 or a long tailshaft th350. I'll have to look around a bit.

I picked up the engine today. Came with a truckbed full of parts!! I still got to get the turbo and PCM from the guy but, everything else was there. I tore off the oil pan and the heads were already off. Everything looks kosher. Im going to tear it the rest of the way down tomorrow. I checked out the harness too, looks intact!! I have to change one huge connector out since the one on there is broken. I'll post some pics of what I snagged later!!

 

Here is a picture of my engine. All the crates are full as well as the cooler. It also has a nearly newer GN Intercooler, Crank & Cam sensors, Distributor, FP Regulator. A couple thigs arent original neither! I'll try to snap a few of the engine tomorrow. Im gonna tear it down tomorrow & set up my workspace.

 

That intercooler is overesize! When you said it came with the stocker, I was thinking they are puny. Good buy!

 

Here is a better pic of it. It looks like a stock one to me, but Ive never seen one in person until this one!

 

My friend has an '87 GN with IIRC 93XX miles on it .
And that on looks thicker and has a bigger I/C to TB pipe.
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Actually, after looking at another pic - it might be the stocker.

 

I plan to take a bunch of pics tomorrow. I'll get a good intercooler shot. I read that the TTA & GN use the same IC & inlet & outlet tubes. I'll have to get some TTA pics to reference. Ive been reading alot on the Engines themselves & hear my 109 stock block is good into the 600+ range. Im sure theyre are alot of people who go higher. I'm likely doing a stock rebuild, stock turbo w/ comp cam, new valvetrain hardware, and use my KB intake & TB. I got my work cut out for me!!

I got a Garrett T04E14 in my basement that I may use, I dont know much about it except Ive heard of some Supra guys running it. It came off a 7.8L Ford Diesel.

 

Try to get some pics of the Garrett.

 

Here is a pic of the Turbo!! Its the only one I got. The turbo is in pieces now.

 

Thats the stock intercooler. Thats the stock pipe to the TB also. The stocker sits in front of the engine(gets heatsoaked easly), I would make up a custom scoop, unless the stock GN ones will work? If you keep the stock intercooler get the elbow upgrade for the pipe to the turbo(duttweller neck?) Or just go FMIC. You can sell the stock intercooler for a decent amount($100, maybe more) to help fund the FMIC(can be done for cheap).
I would do a stock rebuild, like you said..........there are many guys on the TB.com that have gone 11's with stock un-opended motor with just basic bolt ons. Hell the stock cam isn't that bad either. I would really look into just going bigger with the turbo/injectors right off the bat though(if you serious about making some power), because later on down the road you will want to anyways. Might as well not spend the money twice.
Awesome buy, I still can't believe it...........I am gealous as all hell!!!

 

Just my opinion but I wouldnt do that. And be carefull scince in stock location there's not much clearance between the frame and oil pan, you wont be able to move it up much, or back much without clearence issue's with the coil pack.

On my swap I used GN frame pads w/GN motor mounts and put the motor where it is supposed to be using one of my other TTA's as a reference. It now sits in the right place but a touch higher. Got a custom 3" alum driveshaft made by the driveshaft shop for $400, snapped that in two when I turned the power up. Had them make up a 3" chrome moly shaft with spicer 1350 joints and yoke for around $300 and it's been fine scince. I'd much rather the small cost of a driveshaft than to have the motor not sit in the right place.

If I were doing it again I'd use the HR Parts & Stuff TTA motor mount setup, the correct holes should already be in the frame and that would get the motor where it should be.

Hope that helps,
Steve