does anyone make a larger throttle body for a 3.1???? also is my 1991 speed density or MAF???

 

Yea, but not needed.
No Fieros won't work. Just keep yours in great operating condition.

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Chat Soon,
KED85
Karl
1985 Firebird 2.8 to 3.4 swap project for Smog Happy LA, CA

 

Your car has speed density which uses a Manifold Absolute Pressure (MAP) sensor instead of a Mass Air Flow (MAF) sensor.

 

Topguy, just so that you know what your options are, a person in Findland makes a 62mm TB for 3rd gen camaros. I have photos but can't attach them here. If your interested I can email them to you. The price for the TB is about $165 including shipping.

 

Is that Kimmo you're talking about? I talked to him before, he definately knows his stuff!


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-Tom P (Hot rodded 1986 Firebird 2.8l) from http://www.f-body.net/mailbag/3rd/3rd_mailbag.html message boards
---Think your car could be pic of the week? Visit http://www.f-body.net for details!

 

Yes he does and a real nice guy to work with. He'll answer any questions you have about the assembly and any problems to be encountered. I have the TB and it is quite an improvement over the original but I am quite a ways before turning the key

 

Yes he does and a real nice guy to work with. He'll answer any questions you have about the assembly and any problems to be encountered. I have the TB and it is quite an improvement over the original but I am quite a ways before turning the key

 

Sounds like I AM WRONG,
So,
Please explain why!
I can understand about air flow & all that good stuff, BUT
These things are small & UNLESS you can make more air really push thru,
Why bother?
Make the rest of the drivetrain stronger FIRST.

Kinda like putting a 750 CFM carb on a 289 Ford.
Was done alot.
Engine only bogged and flooded and ran poorly. When the proper sized carb was on it (600 CFM), it ran better, as it was better matched to the smaller engine size.
NOW doing the same idea to a 350 Chevy, it'll work better.
The engine is LARGER to begin with.

------------------
Chat Soon,
KED85
Karl
1985 Firebird 2.8 to 3.4 swap project for Smog Happy LA, CA

 

KED85
Adding 5-7hp to a v6 rated at 150hp (2.8) is no small accomplishment. The stock TB was choking the motor to an extent that the intake was not being used to it's potential. The aftermarket TB is rated at about 600CFM. Flow testing has not been made to this TB but I will be doing some flow benching shortly when my heads and intake are sent to the shop for porting. Nothing wrong with adding more CFM as long as fuel and gearing can accomodate the extra flow.

Regardless, to add 5hp with just a bolt on part is my choice rather than beefing up the drivetrain. The inept 2.8 needs all the help it can get. One of the best performance mods to be down to any motor is to increase the flow. This TB is one step in that direction.

 

hmmm does this guy who sells the TB's have an e-mail address?

also how much more hp do you think it will give??? like 1-2??? for me, any amount helps sounds like a plan though

 

Group Purchase.. I would Pay 120 in A GP

 

I see what Karl means, though. Some V8 TPI guys put a too-large TB on their motors, and they lose power because of it.


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-Tom P (Hot rodded 1986 Firebird 2.8l) from http://www.f-body.net/mailbag/3rd/3rd_mailbag.html message boards
---Think your car could be pic of the week? Visit http://www.f-body.net for details!

 

Let's see what $120 will buy
Spark Plug Wires
Spark Plugs
Carb Cleaner
Cap & Rotor
Effort to remove the distributor & rebuild it (FREE!!)
Oil Change
Fresh Anti Freeze
Checking engine vacuum hoses while doing this work (FREE except for the rubber hoses & maybe a plastic fitting)
Getting more air into the air inlet & using possibly a K & N filter
Airring DOWN THE TIRES FOR BETTER STARTING TRACTION (free except for the return to the air pump, that may cost $.25)

I'd say you have money left over for gassing up & trying to see IF YOU HAVE GAINED BACK THE 5 HP you had lost by running an inefficent engine.
I'd say you easily gained about 10. And your gas milage is up, too!!

IF you are running an efficent engine, THEN SPENDING $120 for the new level of 5 HP, that can help.
BUT
even at $120, you can ALSO GO GET AN EFFICENT MUFFLER INSTALLED or even a Cat convertor.

These little V-6 things are to small to have any real difference made by a larger TB.
BUT
BUT
BUT
IF ya run that, in conjunction with a modified MAS or MAF (to adjust timing issues) NOW YOU ARE TALKING.

I built my engine swap set up.
IT IS A VERY EFFICENT DESIGN.
Not much more can be gained from it.
Usually the most performance gain will be in a more efficent
Transmission
Chassis
to accept the new found power.
I'll bet with my car, as is, I can take it to the track. Run it.
Go get better tires
And go faster.
Then put in subframe connectors
and still go faster
THEN MODIFY THE TRANS
and blow you away!
STILL using my stock exhaust system and stock running 2.8/3.4 combo.

Honest, I do not see any true gain from buying a modified TB
UNLESS you are at the point where you have done the above,
FIRST
and you are reaching for that last bit of HP.

Ever see a four barrel manifold for an In-Line 6 cylinder (like my Wife's 1968 Camaro)? Used to be the hot ticket, to help it go fast.
At what cost?
Only used more gas and fouled the plugs quicker!

I got a new distributor, plug wires, plugs and 1 barrel carb and made a ram air intake system for her car.
I now FLY!!!
I made her drive train, MORE EFFICENT, by getting the right stuff to work right!
Still running the factory cast iron 1 barrel carb and factory exhaust.
It's all in how you make what you already have, work the best, then going from there.
Throwing big dollar stuff on, thinking a inefficent engine will go faster, will make it go slower or no difference at all.

Things I've done in the 70's & 80's taught me this.

PS When you start shoving MORE AIR into the engine, then maybe this larger TB will help, too! Until then, stick with what I've suggested. Make it work better!!

------------------
Chat Soon,
KED85
Karl
1985 Firebird 2.8 to 3.4 swap project for Smog Happy LA, CA

 

Topguy, Kimmo's email address is kimmoa@hotmail.com. Getting a Group Price for this was discuss sometime ago on Thirdgen but it never materialized so I went at it solo.


KED85,

All standard maintenance procedures. I don't recall anything in Topguy's post that says his car wasn't running up to normal expectations. Doing a normal tuneup will put the car to it's optimum running condition, not add horsepower. Assuming that's been accomplished the next step would be to modify something on the car, whether it be suspension, engine, chip, etc. There are many ways to add HP to a car if one has in his/hers own mind what $$$ he/she can dish out and what gains he/she expects. If you take an overall look at a stock 2.8L Camaro, you would not be in the minority to see that the weakest link to it's performance capabilities is the 150hp 2.8L, not the tranny, suspension, or lack of subframe connectors. Putting subframe connectors on a stock 2.8L Camaro is like putting 12" slicks on a stock VW beetle. Subframe conn. will help the handling for cornering, if that, for the v6. I wouldn't worry about twisting the chassis with a tourque monster like the 2.8.

By the way, totally different anlogy when comparing doing a TB swap to that of 4 barrel
carb on a six. The TB on its own will not add extra fuel and adding 600CFM will not only help it breathe better but will be able to optimize what ever additional mods one would like to pursue. Changing the MAF won't do anything on it's own. Just look at the I.D. of the MAF and compare it to the I.D. of the stock TB Air Cone and you'll see why.

Anyway this post isn't intended to debate but to point out what I believe Topguy's mindset was when starting this topic..

 

ok...a few things I think.
The more air the the TB can flow the more POTENIAL the engine has to make power. Yes a bigger TB can add a few ponies on its own. Your engine can get the air it needs imediately instead of bogging a little and yes our engine bogs at a right foot slam to the floor. If you can get rid of this slight bog then you have done something good. It will help the motor get on its way faster, and hense get the car going faster..

 

I'm one of the guys "at the point" where a larger TB should be the next step, as is porting the heads, etc... I've gone as far external as I can go, including the trans and rear axle.

Plus, I believe that the TB couldn't "suck" more air then the plenum/intake could hold! After adding a larger TB, I think that the "restriction" would stop being the old throttle body, and become the new restriction of the intake.

One more thing- I don't know if any of you have talked to/met James, the guy with the 13 second 4th gen 3.8 V6 Camaro. He had a professional head-port done, and ran slower. Turned out he needed to bump up the fuel pressure with an adjustable regulator to get the power back, since the heads flowed so much better. The AFPR might be the next logical mod after the TB.

Does anyone know (or did Kimmo measure) the CFM of the stock TB? If we're only talking about 50-100 extra CFM, I think we're doing the same argument as "2.5 inch vs 3.0 inch exhaust"... but if the new TB flows 300 CFM over stock, then we've got cause for concern. Hehe, or, so I think! I'm just guessing at all this; don't hold me to it! It seems like the logical idea, but as we've seen before, logic/theory & actuality don't always jive.


------------------
-Tom P (Hot rodded 1986 Firebird 2.8l) from http://www.f-body.net/mailbag/3rd/3rd_mailbag.html message boards
---Think your car could be pic of the week? Visit http://www.f-body.net for details!

 

I so AGREE with what has been just stated.
Hopefully for the price, you may get what you seek.
Subframe connectors will certainly help launch.
As will the slicks, too!
But, ya gotta get it going right, first, then go for more.
Will a larger TB really help?

Who is willing to purchase it and stick it on, go to the track to show us who's right and who is just throwing money away?

Me?
I hold onto the theory of garbage in & garbage out.
A 2.8 is not the proper size garbage compactor, as is a 3.4.
When I did my swap, I really wish I could have held onto the 3.4 stuff and figure out how to get it on the car and use it.
IT was a smoother TB design (NOT LARGER AT ALL, tho) and the intake runner is a one piece unit. Smoother inside walls, I'll bet.
Would it do something?
I don't know, sold the stuff for $105.
The fact that my 3.4 runs so strong with the 2.8 intake is a testimony to the original design.
My car now needs more air into the air intake system to go faster. Or my ram air or cold air design can now help.


------------------
Chat Soon,
KED85
Karl
1985 Firebird 2.8 to 3.4 swap project for Smog Happy LA, CA

 

This was a TOTAL guess by a local shop, but someone said they have seen 190 cfm TB's larger than ours.

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1989 Firebird
2.8 v6, t5 swapped in

Ram Hi-po clutch, Cold Air, 1.6 rockers,Lakewood LCA's, Lakewood Lift bars, Wonder Bar, 3" y-pipe, Random Tech Cat, 3" I-pipe, Flowmasters, MSd 6a, MSD Coil (Fireball in future) Accel 8.8 wires, MSD Ignition Module, Auto Meter Gauges (Water, Clock (needed one) Fuel Pressure, and 5" monster tach)TB Bypass, 4th Gen Seats

Coming for my v6:
Panhard Bar, 4thgen front seats, Nitrous, Line Lock, and Ram Air 2 hood

"I'd rather run last in a full out race, than to not have run at all"

 

It's a guess also as to the CFM of a 62mm for the V6. They have not been able to flow bwench a unit at this time. What really has to be done in addition to replacing the TB is to port match the intake to the new TB. This not only includes the opening but further in the air passages. Otherwise it's a wasted effort. To get an idea of the size of the opening, the TB cone will not fit into the opening of the MAF, but the stock TB/MAF hose will fit perfectly over the TB cone, unlike before where the hose was crunched to conform to the stock shape. I will be having my machinest flow bench these components this summer so I'll post the results hear when the data is available (before new TB and after).

 

Great!
I really hope the results work in your favor.
Many of use lack those special tools to read test results, besides seat of the pants.
Unless you have those tools or alot of track time, sometimes it ends up as wasted money.
Most anxious to hear your positive results!
I really wish I could have offered you the 3.4 intake stuff.
It would have bolted onto the 2.8 intake, too (with slight modification).

------------------
Chat Soon,
KED85
Karl
1985 Firebird 2.8 to 3.4 swap project for Smog Happy LA, CA

[This message has been edited by KED85 (edited June 07, 2001).]

 

Ill get one ill get one talk to me in october when i do my rebuild maybe and if i have the funds ill do that as well. i get 9,000 bones on october so ill be happy