When you click on links to various merchants on this site and make a purchase, this can result in this site earning a commission. Affiliate programs and affiliations include, but are not limited to, the eBay Partner Network.
Where is the "Starter Enable Relay" and how to bypass it?
Hi all!
I have figured out i have a VATS system problem currently.
Starter Enable Relay
Ignition Cylinder Block
Can you guys please tell me is that 1st picture the starter enable relay and do i need to connect A and E wires for to bypass it? I got my info from here: vatssucks.com "Clip wire from Pin A ( DK GRN/WHT) and wire from Pin E (YEL) and wire them together. Leave some excess sticking out of the wiring harness in case you ever want to revert back to using the relay again."
Re: Where is the "Starter Enable Relay" and how to bypass it?
Originally Posted by Dr34m
Thank you for your answer, but i couldnt find anything else besides that. Can you please tell me which wires i need to connect?
You can connect wires till the cows come home , and you car is still not gonna start !
You have a different open thread on this same no start problem , how about keeping it all in one thread so folks can follow what's already been done ?
Now , as Qwktrip told you , the starter enable relay is behind the driver's side kick panel and when you jump it out your car is gonna crank over on the starter but since VATS still isn't telling the ECM to turn on the injectors it's gonna do just that and that only , crank over on the starter without starting up (no fuel = no run) !
Bottom line = you MUST satisfy the ECM's need of a VATS enable signal in one of two ways ONLY , you either give it the VATS signal it needs , or you have an ECM chip burned with VATS deleted in it . Then and only then , when you have an ECM with a chip that has VATS deleted , will you jump out the VATS relay , but jumping the relay alone will both NOT start your car , NOR fix the missing ignition spark you said was a problem in your other thread .
Re: Where is the "Starter Enable Relay" and how to bypass it?
Originally Posted by OrangeBird
That document is useless to you , except for showing you pretty pictures of keys . You do not have the "passkey 3" system , you have VATS . Your ECM has no "relearn" feature for the antitheft system , it's either getting it's proper VATS enable signal from the VATS module or it isn't , and from the sounds of things with the security light on , the ECM is not getting it's enable signal from the VATS module . In our third gens you could take a different ECM from a different 1989 2.8 six MPFI VIN S 5 speed car and it would accept the signal from your VATS module just fine with no relearn needed , the only two "matching" parts being the resistor in the key and the VATS module itself .
BTW , VATS does NOT kill the spark in our cars ! It kills the starter crank signal and the injector spray signal only . If you have no spark , you have other things besides VATS to deal with , of course with the light on you now DO have VATS to deal with as well . Did this "electrician" disconnect something in his troubleshooting that may have affected VATS and put the light on ? Bottom line here is , unless this guy has worked on VATS equipped cars before , the learning curve could get rather costly for you as you pay him to learn about VATS . Now if someone in the past did the "VATS resistor bypass" to make the whole keyless pushbutton start thing happen and it worked for 5 months , your best bet is going to be to search out wiring diagrams and parts locations for the various VATS components and educate your electrician as to the system's proper functioning if effective repairs are to be made .
Re: Where is the "Starter Enable Relay" and how to bypass it?
I apologized for making those threads, but since then i have been working with an electrician on the problem. Let me show you my point what im dealing with.
The last owner has installed a custom ignition system. Now the security light is on and stays on. I have no key! It doesnt need a key to start.
The 2nd option is to go onto the relay. The 3rd is in the ECM. What do you suggest?
Re: Where is the "Starter Enable Relay" and how to bypass it?
Okay i understand you guys are blaming the ignition system itself, but i told you i checked the ignition coil - OK, i checked the fuses - OK, i even changed the distributor - OK. My electrician tested for power - OK. It has to be the VATS system.
Re: Where is the "Starter Enable Relay" and how to bypass it?
I would gladly do the resistor method, but as i said, i have no key. There is no such thing. And i cant find the orange wire going into the ignition lock. It has been completely removed or hidden (so far cant find it).
Re: Where is the "Starter Enable Relay" and how to bypass it?
Agreed that it's probably not the relay if you believe it's a VATS issue...however if you do feel like finding the relay to try jumping it out, it is behind that kick panel as Qwk Trip suggested, but he failed to mention that it's also covered by some sort of weather resistant black gooey substance. You'll have to peel that back to access the relay. Sometimes the black goo material is already gone depending on if it's been mucked around with before or not. Just replace that black goo with a piece of Dynamat or self adhesive roofing material material when you re-install. Otherwise you might have some water infiltration to the cabin.
Re: Where is the "Starter Enable Relay" and how to bypass it?
Originally Posted by Dr34m
I would gladly do the resistor method, but as i said, i have no key. There is no such thing. And i cant find the orange wire going into the ignition lock. It has been completely removed or hidden (so far cant find it).
You don't have a key? Did the car ever start? Or did you buy the car not running?
Re: Where is the "Starter Enable Relay" and how to bypass it?
Some clarification:
1) I bought the car 5 months ago, it had a push to start system installed. It had NO KEY, i repeat NO KEY. Only for the doors (mechanical unlock/lock) key. That time i didnt think it would become an issue.
2) I remember that if i turned the ignition, the security light went away after 2 seconds.
3) Recently i was driving on the road and BOOM stopped working.
4) Checked for sparks, didnt get any. If i switch the ignition off, 1 spark comes (i can see even revs after turning ignition off about 200RPM). While cranking no RPM or no sparks.
5) Changed spark plugs, spark plug wires, new distributor, new ignition coil. Electrician tested for connection. Everything was OK.
6) Security light stays on, even left the battery off for 24 hours, still ON. Had the ignition on for 10 minutes. Still on even 3x tried it.
7) As you can see cylinder lock VATS is not even connected. Car ran perfectly for 5 months.
Re: Where is the "Starter Enable Relay" and how to bypass it?
Ok , Now , let's get a few facts about this system stated so we don't have to go over them again . You said you have no spark , I promise you 100% that VATS in no way controls the spark ! It kills two things and two things only , the "crank" signal from the key to the starter , and the "pulse" signal for the injectors to spray fuel . That's all .
Now your no spark condition is a secondary problem that must be dealt with apart from VATS . Now WRT VATS , since there is no key , someone would have had to have done one of three things to run the car ;
#1 Burn an ECM chip with no VATS (obviously this wasn't done or it would run , if it had a spark , that is)
#2 supply the ECM with a VATS signal from a properly functioning factory VATS module
OR
#3 supply the ECM with a VATS signal from an aftermarket "VATS delete" box that wires in place of the factory VATS module .
So now , with the security light on , you KNOW that your ECM isn't getting a VATS signal . Did the resistor bypass that someone did to eliminate the key fail ? Did the VATS module itself fail ? Is the ECM somehow malfunctioned and not accepting the VATS signal from the VATS module ? Whichever of those three causes are that have the security light on have to get fixed before it'll spray the injectors . The VATS signal isn't just some DC 12 volt signal that you can jump around and get the car running again , it's an AC signal of around 40 HZ if I remember right , and that 40ish HZ signal has to be seen for the ECM to allow the start enable relay to spin the starter AND for the ECM to allow the injectors to spray fuel . Now , like I said earlier , no amount of jumping the starter enable relay will power up the injectors , so you have to do one of the three mentioned things , fix factory VATS , buy an aftermarket electronic device to supply the missing VATS signal , or have VATS programmed out of the ECM's chip (and then and only then , when the ECM's chip has no VATS , will you jump out the starter enable relay) .
I hope that made sense of it for you .
Last edited by OrangeBird; 07-13-2016 at 02:12 PM.
Reason: To slay the dreaded typo monster , of course .....
Re: Where is the "Starter Enable Relay" and how to bypass it?
One other thing to note ;
I would completely remove and put back to factory wiring that aftermarket alarm system you say is in there . Most who install them seem to be hacks , doing it as a job that they don't give a whit about the car or customer as long as the tab gets paid for the install , and when such person has been at the wires you never know what your gonna find . Putting all the wiring back to factory will establish a baseline for further troubleshooting . VATS most certainly does not kill your power to your distributor (your missing spark) , but that's not to say that the aftermarket installer didn't connect the alarm to the distributor's power feed !
Re: Where is the "Starter Enable Relay" and how to bypass it?
Okay so what you are saying is that: If i turn on the ignition (without a key), all of the gauges start working normal, my security light is ON and when i crank the engine and it does its cranking sound and i read no sparks, it has nothing to do with the starter enable relay because if it would be that, the engine wouldnt even crank? OR it is not even related to the cranking of engine.
I am refering to the site vatssucks.com and he specifically says that the 1st problem to look for is pass key ignition switch and the 2nd is starter enable relay. Since my 1st problem has already been dealt with (as you saw from the pictures) and i have no clue where the pass key ignition switch wire is, i am trying to work with the 2nd solution. Of course the 3rd solution is ECM cracking, but i dont know how to do it.
Re: Where is the "Starter Enable Relay" and how to bypass it?
Originally Posted by OrangeBird
One other thing to note ;
I would completely remove and put back to factory wiring that aftermarket alarm system you say is in there . Most who install them seem to be hacks , doing it as a job that they don't give a whit about the car or customer as long as the tab gets paid for the install , and when such person has been at the wires you never know what your gonna find . Putting all the wiring back to factory will establish a baseline for further troubleshooting . VATS most certainly does not kill your power to your distributor (your missing spark) , but that's not to say that the aftermarket installer didn't connect the alarm to the distributor's power feed !
Tbh thats what i am trying to do, but in order to do that i need to get my car working so i can drive it to my mechanics place. Currently i just have free time, but i could tow it as well. I was just trying to fix this problem at home and it seems i cant do it...
Re: Where is the "Starter Enable Relay" and how to bypass it?
Agreed with Orange Bird.
Your description of "checking for sparks" and "1 spark" makes no sense to me. I'm not sure how you came to those conclusions. Perhaps a description on how you checked for spark would help out. I say that because it seems like you are using the dash tach to determine if your ignition system is firing. You may want to try some more traditional methods to ensure that is the case. Like spraying some ether/starting fluid in the intake and crank it over. If it starts then dies out once the ether is burned off...then you probably have good spark. Then you can turn your attention to the VATS issue.
Re: Where is the "Starter Enable Relay" and how to bypass it?
Originally Posted by greenyone
Agreed with Orange Bird.
Your description of "checking for sparks" and "1 spark" makes no sense to me. I'm not sure how you came to those conclusions. Perhaps a description on how you checked for spark would help out. I say that because it seems like you are using the dash tach to determine if your ignition system is firing. You may want to try some more traditional methods to ensure that is the case. Like spraying some ether/starting fluid in the intake and crank it over. If it starts then dies out once the ether is burned off...then you probably have good spark. Then you can turn your attention to the VATS issue.
How i checked it? Simply we took off one spark plug cable and put a spark plug in it (old one). Touched the metal part of the engine. I was cranking the engine, no spark, after i turned the ignition off it gave 1 spark.
Re: Where is the "Starter Enable Relay" and how to bypass it?
Originally Posted by Dr34m
I would gladly do the resistor method, but as i said, i have no key. There is no such thing. And i cant find the orange wire going into the ignition lock. It has been completely removed or hidden (so far cant find it).
The connector with the white wire is not associated with the VATS . Like you correctly said , there is an orange wire (with two very small white wires within) that was supposed to connect to the ignition switch to read the key's resistor for the VATS module . Since it's been hacked to work without the key , it's likely that the orange wire has been cut , has had a resistor wired across the two tiny white wires , and then got taped or tucked up out of sight somewhere . One other thought , did you know , that in the "convienence center" there is a fuse specifically for the VATS module ? If you do a search here for the convienence center you'll find photos of exactly what it looks like , it's under the dashboard on the driver's side , to the right of the steering column , and that fuse should be next up on your list to check .
Re: Where is the "Starter Enable Relay" and how to bypass it?
Already checked and switched. It was a 10AMP fuse. It looked good, but i changed it anways. I am yet to crank the engine tho after the fuse change. I will do that right now and see if it works.
Re: Where is the "Starter Enable Relay" and how to bypass it?
Yep cranked it, nothing. Just cranks and fsjo. Doesnt start sparking. Battery is getting a bit low now as well 9 volts. Excessively have tried to crank the engine in the past.
Re: Where is the "Starter Enable Relay" and how to bypass it?
Originally Posted by Dr34m
Okay so what you are saying is that: If i turn on the ignition (without a key), all of the gauges start working normal, my security light is ON and when i crank the engine and it does its cranking sound and i read no sparks, it has nothing to do with the starter enable relay because if it would be that, the engine wouldnt even crank? OR it is not even related to the cranking of engine.
What I'm saying is that if when you had the engine able to crank over on the starter there was truly and really no spark , then that is a separate issue from the VATS problem (which appears to have sprung up after the spark died , since you say it would at least crank the starter before , and now it won't) .
Now , if you did jump the start relay , and if you did have spark , with the security light on solid it's still not gonna spray the injectors so what you have (if you really do have no spark) is two totally separate problems that will need to be troubleshot is independent problems . For your VATS , it's either the resistor bypass failed , the VATS module failed (or it's fues I mentioned earlier is blown) , or the ECM has malfunctioned and is not accepting a valid VATS signal . For the security light to be on solid those are the only possible causes .
Re: Where is the "Starter Enable Relay" and how to bypass it?
I hope we are on the same page.
Before:
Engine would crank, sparks were present, engine started running, no Security light.
After:
Engine would crank, engine wont start (starter is working), Security light is ON.
Just for clarification. But okay, if you are saying that the spark problem is related to something else, then now i am totally clueless on what to do. Electrician checked the ignition system and is now blaming the ignition lock. What am i supposed to do here?
Re: Where is the "Starter Enable Relay" and how to bypass it?
Originally Posted by Dr34m
Yep cranked it, nothing. Just cranks and fsjo. Doesnt start sparking. Battery is getting a bit low now as well 9 volts. Excessively have tried to crank the engine in the past.
Get a charger on the battery , they don't take kindly to being excessively drained . When you say you cranked it over , are you saying that even with the security light on the starter will still crank the engine ? I thought earlier you said it wouldn't crank ? If so , someone has likely already jumped out the start enable relay , cause that's it's job , it's supposed to keep the starter from cranking over the engine if VATS isn't satisfied (security light on) .
Just curious , where do ya live ? If you are somewhat close to me I'd offer to take a quick look at it for you .
Re: Where is the "Starter Enable Relay" and how to bypass it?
Originally Posted by OrangeBird
Get a charger on the battery , they don't take kindly to being excessively drained . When you say you cranked it over , are you saying that even with the security light on the starter will still crank the engine ? I thought earlier you said it wouldn't crank ? If so , someone has likely already jumped out the start enable relay , cause that's it's job , it's supposed to keep the starter from cranking over the engine if VATS isn't satisfied (security light on) .
Just curious , where do ya live ? If you are somewhat close to me I'd offer to take a quick look at it for you .
Thanks mate for offering your help, you know how much i would dream to live in the States, i am unfortunately living in Estonia ... to you it says nothing. Next to Finland . Europe yeah...
Yes sorry for saying it wrong. I turn the ignition, all the lights come ON, security is ON and then i can crank the engine (it does the tsutsutsutsuts sounds). And nothing. It just doesnt start.
I have already tried out 2 mechanics locally who deal with American cars. I am tomorrow trying out a 3rd one, and 3/3 of them are starting to blame the VATS system because everything else seems to be okay...
Re: Where is the "Starter Enable Relay" and how to bypass it?
Originally Posted by Dr34m
I hope we are on the same page.
Before:
Engine would crank, sparks were present, engine started running, no Security light.
After:
Engine would crank, engine wont start (starter is working), Security light is ON.
Just for clarification. But okay, if you are saying that the spark problem is related to something else, then now i am totally clueless on what to do. Electrician checked the ignition system and is now blaming the ignition lock. What am i supposed to do here?
Ok , so now I'm sure someone has already jumped out the start relay , cause it should not crank with the light on . Now , with the light on , it is not gonna spray the injectors even if the jumped out relay is allowing the starter to crank . If you had a big bright blue fat spark and the light was on , the injectors still wouldn't be spraying but the spark would be just fine since it's not controlled by VATS , only the starter and the injectors are . That's why I say you've got two separate problems if you have a solid security light AND no spark cause the two are not related .
Re: Where is the "Starter Enable Relay" and how to bypass it?
Originally Posted by OrangeBird
Ok , so now I'm sure someone has already jumped out the start relay , cause it should not crank with the light on . Now , with the light on , it is not gonna spray the injectors even if the jumped out relay is allowing the starter to crank . If you had a big bright blue fat spark and the light was on , the injectors still wouldn't be spraying but the spark would be just fine since it's not controlled by VATS , only the starter and the injectors are . That's why I say you've got two separate problems if you have a solid security light AND no spark cause the two are not related .
Okay so now you are basically saying that the VATS problem must be related to the ECM, since i can turn the ignition lock (no key inserted), i can crank the engine (starter relay) and now it doesnt spray the fuel OR it doesnt give sparks for some other unknown reason.
So the problems are: no sparks because of an unknown problem and ECM not letting fuel sprayed into the cylinder? Am i now understanding your drift?
Re: Where is the "Starter Enable Relay" and how to bypass it?
Originally Posted by Dr34m
This is why i was trying to bypass the starter enable relay. Look at the scheme, it is the first bypass system to go through.
If you look to the top right of this diagram you will see where the VATS module sends that 40 HZ signal to the ECM , they even label it "don't measure" cause a standard voltmeter can't read the signal (an "Oscilloscope" is required to "see" if the 40HZ signal is present and at proper frequency) . The VATS module also enables the start relay , but as you see this controls the starter only . On the starter relay , someone has already had to have jumped either the big yellow to the big dark green/white wire , or they jumped the small dark green to ground , so that your starter spins regardless of VATS condition . Like I said , this will get your starter cranking , but till the injectors get pulsed it won't run .
Estonia , huh ? I have not been there , but I have been to a few European countries and loved every minute of it ! Greece , France , Italy , Germany , England , and especially Amsterdam (for obvious reasons were all great places to visit .
Re: Where is the "Starter Enable Relay" and how to bypass it?
Huh, today i give up with the problem. Another day another fight. You know what makes me so angry that i want to punch a wall?
The fact that i have already payed 2 mechanics (who are reliable) and they still dont know what the problem is. With one i even changed all the ignition parts for (ignition coil, distributor) and still the car wont *** start. Now if we can conclude that the ECM is faulty, then its another 150 bucks + reprogramming it. I dont even want to know how much that will cost. And what happens if it doesnt help again? I am tired of putting money on IF's. Sorry, dont mind me im just venting out. Thats why i hate fricking car electronics. It seems like the fricking pornography directors made the whole electronics system. And sum it up with the previous owner who did some of his own pornography episodes with the "Custom" ignition system, i am tearing hair out of my head...
Currently i am clueless to what to do. My next step is to check the Passkey Module and ECM connections. If those look good and i see no problems with them, then i am truly clueless. I guess then i need to continue finding a mechanic who can fix it.
Re: Where is the "Starter Enable Relay" and how to bypass it?
Yea I know it can get frustrating when the electronics is messed up , especially if it's not one of your areas of knowledge . The thing is , with the security light on , it's telling you there is a VATS problem . Now , even though I mentioned the ECM , cause it is part of the system , it's kinda rare for the ECM to malfunction causing a "false bad VATS reading" , so it's highly likely either the resistor bypass to eliminate the key has failed , or the VATS module itself has failed . Now , any mechanic worth his pay should be able to check at that terminal on your diagram where the VATS connects to the ECM , what is it , terminal "B6 C1" or something like that (can't see the small print) that is at the top right side of the diagram you posted earlier , and determine if a proper VATS signal is there or not . My suspicion will be that it's not there , the ECM is fine , and if the resistor bypass or the VATS module itself has failed it should be easy to find out , once you locate where they hid the wires they bypassed the key resistance on .
If all else fails , I think I'd buy one of those aftermarket boxes that create a replacement VATS signal and have it connected to the ECM where the original VATS module now connects . Done right , that would eliminate both the resistor bypass and the factory VATS module itself , and will allow it to run . I think those boxes that actually put out the required AC signal are considerably less than $100 dollars (US) and could very well be a good solution if your VATS module is dead . If I recall correctly , the VATS module is purposefully buried WAY deep into the dashboard (to preclude a thief from tampering with it) but the good news here is that the ECM itself , the box that actually needs the signal , is handily located right behind the passenger's dashboard area and comes out in about a minute . It is to the ECM that the connections would be made for the aftermarket VATS signal replacement box would be , so no digging into the dash for the original module would be needed ....
Re: Where is the "Starter Enable Relay" and how to bypass it?
Originally Posted by OrangeBird
Yea I know it can get frustrating when the electronics is messed up , especially if it's not one of your areas of knowledge . The thing is , with the security light on , it's telling you there is a VATS problem . Now , even though I mentioned the ECM , cause it is part of the system , it's kinda rare for the ECM to malfunction causing a "false bad VATS reading" , so it's highly likely either the resistor bypass to eliminate the key has failed , or the VATS module itself has failed . Now , any mechanic worth his pay should be able to check at that terminal on your diagram where the VATS connects to the ECM , what is it , terminal "B6 C1" or something like that (can't see the small print) that is at the top right side of the diagram you posted earlier , and determine if a proper VATS signal is there or not . My suspicion will be that it's not there , the ECM is fine , and if the resistor bypass or the VATS module itself has failed it should be easy to find out , once you locate where they hid the wires they bypassed the key resistance on .
If all else fails , I think I'd buy one of those aftermarket boxes that create a replacement VATS signal and have it connected to the ECM where the original VATS module now connects . Done right , that would eliminate both the resistor bypass and the factory VATS module itself , and will allow it to run . I think those boxes that actually put out the required AC signal are considerably less than $100 dollars (US) and could very well be a good solution if your VATS module is dead . If I recall correctly , the VATS module is purposefully buried WAY deep into the dashboard (to preclude a thief from tampering with it) but the good news here is that the ECM itself , the box that actually needs the signal , is handily located right behind the passenger's dashboard area and comes out in about a minute . It is to the ECM that the connections would be made for the aftermarket VATS signal replacement box would be , so no digging into the dash for the original module would be needed ....
I have been reading around the internet. It seems some say that the CKP (Crankshaft position sensor) might be the cause of the problem of no sparks. Do you think that it is realistic?
Re: Where is the "Starter Enable Relay" and how to bypass it?
Originally Posted by Dr34m
I have been reading around the internet. It seems some say that the CKP (Crankshaft position sensor) might be the cause of the problem of no sparks. Do you think that it is realistic?
No my Friend , neither the crankshaft nor the camshaft position sensor are used on our cars , they do not exist because we have a mechanical distributor in charge of when the sparks happen . A car with a "DIS" (Distributor Less system) uses both a crank and cam shaft position sensor to tell the computer exactly where in the firing event the pistons are , so the computer can send the signal in the proper time to fire the sparkplug and to pulse the injectors . Our ECM knows only whether the engine is turning or not , and using a mechanical distributor to time and distribute sparks and the "Batch Fire" scheme for the injectors , it doesn't need to know the exact crank (or cam) position at any instant to accomplish sparking or injecting , it just counts pulses and fires the injectors all at once (in two banks , INJ1 and INJ2) .
Re: Where is the "Starter Enable Relay" and how to bypass it?
Thank you OrangeBird and greenyone for helping me!
Let me just restart with all the information to this date 14.07.2016.
1) About 3 weeks ago my car stopped working while driving.
2) Further inspection shows that the "Security Light" is ON and i can CRANK the engine. The engine does it sounds "Tsütsütsüt", but doesn't start. Let me repeat it CRANKS with sound.
3) I tested for sparks, but there is no spark when cranking. 1 spark comes right after i switch off my ignition for some reason.
4) I changed the distributor module (the whole with it PCM etc.), and tested with a new ignition coil. Still didnt start.
5) I have a custom push-to-start button for the ignition. Basically the previous owner installed a method where you can TURN THE IGNITION without a KEY. You have NO KEY. You can turn the ignition lock to RUN and then you PUSH the starter button which STARTS the engine.
6) Car ran perfectly fine for 5 months and had no issues with "Security Light".
7) Let me add to it that the "Check Engine" light is also ON when i turn the ignition to RUN.
8) I am completely clueless atm. Engine cranks with sound, no spark in spark plugs. New spark plugs, new wires. The only connection i have left is the connection to the ignition lock, but it seems fine.
My solutions: Either the VATS system is doing its work since it is a custom thingy (But previous posters said it has nothing to do with sparks) or some kind of ignition system is faulty, but i cant find the problem. I am searching for a new electrician mechanic who can maybe find out the spark problem. If it is true that the engine should give sparks if i can crank it (with counting the VATS issue) then the VATS issue is truly not the problem here. If anyone has had this issue before, please help me. I am currently just changing parts and nothing is changing.
I hope this covers all the information here.
!NEW INFO! - Rotor is not moving in the new distributor. Hmm...
Re: Where is the "Starter Enable Relay" and how to bypass it?
It's starting to sound like there may an issue between your ignition switch and starter solenoid. Like power is not getting to your coil when cranking. Maybe check the connections down on the starter solenoid first. Make sure they are clean and tight then test for spark again when cranking.
If that doesn't work I'd suspect that 1 spark you are getting has something to do with a bad ignition switch. When you go from start to run it may be making contact momentarily. Which could explain why you get 1 spark when you let of the key (start button in your case). Maybe try wiggling they key between start and run while pushing that start button and see if it tries to start...meaning it may only be making contact intermittently in that switch. If that is the case then I'd replace the ignition switch and lock cylinder and remove that push button. Put the wiring back to it's factory state.
Re: Where is the "Starter Enable Relay" and how to bypass it?
Originally Posted by greenyone
It's starting to sound like there may an issue between your ignition switch and starter solenoid. Like power is not getting to your coil when cranking. Maybe check the connections down on the starter solenoid first. Make sure they are clean and tight then test for spark again when cranking.
If that doesn't work I'd suspect that 1 spark you are getting has something to do with a bad ignition switch. When you go from start to run it may be making contact momentarily. Which could explain why you get 1 spark when you let of the key (start button in your case). Maybe try wiggling they key between start and run while pushing that start button and see if it tries to start...meaning it may only be making contact intermittently in that switch. If that is the case then I'd replace the ignition switch and lock cylinder and remove that push button. Put the wiring back to it's factory state.
I have bad news... my electrician told me that the engine might be blown. I am sorry but i dont know how to say it in english (i am estonian), but i will try to explain it. Basically we put in the new distributor. The rotor doesnt move when you crank the engine. I remember clearly where the old rotor position was. And if i recall i remember that when the issue started, the old rotor was not moving as well. My electrician is saying it is a mechanical issue, because he tried to move the distributors rotor manually by turning the engine. It seems that the teeth system or what ever it is where you stick the distributor is either broken or loose. I inquired by my friend what it would cost to repair such a problem and he told me its around 1k... i am going to let it checked by a mechanical technician next week, but if it is true, then i am sad to say but my baby has died. I am currently starting to consider either engine swap to 350 or some other possibilities.
Today is a sad day...
BUT maybe im wrong, but thats what the electrician said...
Re: Where is the "Starter Enable Relay" and how to bypass it?
Originally Posted by Dr34m
I have bad news... my electrician told me that the engine might be blown. I am sorry but i dont know how to say it in english (i am estonian), but i will try to explain it. Basically we put in the new distributor. The rotor doesnt move when you crank the engine. I remember clearly where the old rotor position was. And if i recall i remember that when the issue started, the old rotor was not moving as well. My electrician is saying it is a mechanical issue, because he tried to move the distributors rotor manually by turning the engine. It seems that the teeth system or what ever it is where you stick the distributor is either broken or loose. I inquired by my friend what it would cost to repair such a problem and he told me its around 1k... i am going to let it checked by a mechanical technician next week, but if it is true, then i am sad to say but my baby has died. I am currently starting to consider either engine swap to 350 or some other possibilities.
Today is a sad day...
BUT maybe im wrong, but thats what the electrician said...
If the rotor is not spinning then it's probably just a broken roll pin that keeps the gear on the distributor on the bottom end of the distributor shaft. Get your mechanic to pull that distributor and inspect it. Could be an easy fix if the gear comes out with the distributor and does not look like it was loose enough to chew anything up.
Re: Where is the "Starter Enable Relay" and how to bypass it?
Originally Posted by greenyone
If the rotor is not spinning then it's probably just a broken roll pin that keeps the gear on the distributor on the bottom end of the distributor shaft. Get your mechanic to pull that distributor and inspect it. Could be an easy fix if the gear comes out with the distributor and does not look like it was loose enough to chew anything up.
And if it's not the roll pin at the bottom of the distributor driven gear , your "Timing Chain" has broken and is a very common , easy repair for any mechanic . The fact that the distributor don't turn most certainly is your lack of spark , but the solid security light (VATS) leads me to believe like I said earlier that you have two separate problems going on .
With this new info , here's my best guess ;
You say you think the original distributor wasn't turning either ?
Well , if this is true , your timing chain broke , and in the process of trying to determine why there was no spark , one of the two mechanics you had working on it messed up something to do with VATS , putting the light on .
Now , your engine is NOT "blown" , at worst you'll likely need the timing chain (and gears) replaced and the VATS light properly troubleshot and repaired . THEN your engine WILL run , no "Blown" about it .
For a supposed "Mechanic" to "diagnose" a "blown engine" from the distributor not turning tells me you need to find YET another mechanic , one who preferably understands how engines work .
Just for clarification ; "Blown" , in engine language , usually happens at a very high RPM , one of the pistons or connecting rods for the pistons , fractures and the broken metal flails around in there tearing up all kinds of other metal (like the block itself) and this happens with an almost explosion like sound . It literally sounds like a bomb was detonated under the hood !
Now , since you heard no horrible "BANG !!!!" when it quit , your timing chain broke , one of two blokes screwed the pooch on your VATS with their uneducated troubleshooting , and it'll run again when the distributor turns (new chain) and the VATS light is off (proper electronic troubleshooting & repair)
Good luck with it , and please report back your progress ....
Re: Where is the "Starter Enable Relay" and how to bypass it?
Originally Posted by OrangeBird
And if it's not the roll pin at the bottom of the distributor driven gear , your "Timing Chain" has broken and is a very common , easy repair for any mechanic . The fact that the distributor don't turn most certainly is your lack of spark , but the solid security light (VATS) leads me to believe like I said earlier that you have two separate problems going on .
With this new info , here's my best guess ;
You say you think the original distributor wasn't turning either ?
Well , if this is true , your timing chain broke , and in the process of trying to determine why there was no spark , one of the two mechanics you had working on it messed up something to do with VATS , putting the light on .
Now , your engine is NOT "blown" , at worst you'll likely need the timing chain (and gears) replaced and the VATS light properly troubleshot and repaired . THEN your engine WILL run , no "Blown" about it .
For a supposed "Mechanic" to "diagnose" a "blown engine" from the distributor not turning tells me you need to find YET another mechanic , one who preferably understands how engines work .
Just for clarification ; "Blown" , in engine language , usually happens at a very high RPM , one of the pistons or connecting rods for the pistons , fractures and the broken metal flails around in there tearing up all kinds of other metal (like the block itself) and this happens with an almost explosion like sound . It literally sounds like a bomb was detonated under the hood !
Now , since you heard no horrible "BANG !!!!" when it quit , your timing chain broke , one of two blokes screwed the pooch on your VATS with their uneducated troubleshooting , and it'll run again when the distributor turns (new chain) and the VATS light is off (proper electronic troubleshooting & repair)
Good luck with it , and please report back your progress ....
Good thinking Orangebird. A broken timing chain would have eluded me also. I guess if they dropped in the dizzy at the same positiion as the old one then it could have gone undetected.
If that timing chain turns out to be the culprit, use that opportunity to put in a new water pump and harmonic balancer....as yours are probably original or very old at this point.
Re: Where is the "Starter Enable Relay" and how to bypass it?
Thanks guys for some insight and emotional boost ! Maybe i dont have to put a lot of money in it. I was expecting a 300 buck repair (all of it) so maybe it can fit into my budget. If its like the electrician said 1000 (which i doubt because he is prone to make false assumptions which we can conclude) maybe the mechanic who i will visit will be more experienced in such a situation.
To be honest when i first heard about the massive blow i was kind of shocked since my car has run only 110k miles (okay i dont know if its true or not), but for a serious part to get broken, it really needs to be old in my opinion. Who knows, i will report back if i get smarter.
Currently the problem is as says. If i turn the engine, the rotor doesnt move and it gets harder and harder to move the engine. I stopped right after i felt tension back.
Re: Where is the "Starter Enable Relay" and how to bypass it?
Stop turning the engine. If the timing chain is broken the valves have stopped moving but the pistons have not. Compression builds up and is not released, and interference problems result. All you can do by turning the engine is damage more parts. Take it apart and see what's really up.
Well, apparently though, since you have been turning over the engine without clattering noises you just may have been lucky in that regard
Re: Where is the "Starter Enable Relay" and how to bypass it?
Originally Posted by henryd3
Stop turning the engine. If the timing chain is broken the valves have stopped moving but the pistons have not. Compression builds up and is not released, and interference problems result. All you can do by turning the engine is damage more parts. Take it apart and see what's really up.
Well, apparently though, since you have been turning over the engine without clattering noises you just may have been lucky in that regard
Well said Henry , now that's it's pretty much been determined that the timing chain broke there is no need to turn the engine anymore , and it's time to put tools to it ! Thankfully our engines are not the kind that automatically destroy the valves when the cam stops turning but there is no need to provoke further damage . I think the absolute worst that could be found here is that sometimes a broken chain can get wrapped around the crankshaft gear and tear the hell outta the timing chain cover from the inside out . But hopefully it's just a simple timing chain & gears replacement and if he's really lucky the VATS light may be the resistor getting knocked out of place by the two people that have already been at the wires trying to diagnose it .
Also , Greenyone has a great point about the water pump and yes even the harmonic dampener if you can possibly afford it while it's apart for the timing chain & gears replacement . The water pump being self explainatory , they wear out at the drop of a hat and the Dampener being because the rubber in them fails with time and they slip within themselves . Not only does this screw up your timing mark (if your given to using them , I tend to "tune by ear" and give the engine what IT wants rather then what the book says it wants) but more importantly if it slips it puts the outer weighted ring out of sync with where it's actually supposed to be with relation to the crank , and then the weird undampened vibes end up doing weird things like loosening flywheel bolts & such !
Re: Where is the "Starter Enable Relay" and how to bypass it?
Hey, this is really irrelevant, but how is the ignition lock able to be turned unless maybe the key is broken off inside it? I apologize, my brain sometimes just won't stop...
Check this to further be in touch with my problem. Answering henryd3 questions, i inspected the system and the ignition lock has been modified. I now have a stock ignition lock with a key which i will replace. What is true is that the previous owner had manipulated the ingition lock wiring so that it bypasses it. I found the wires that were manipulated. The starter enable relay hasnt been modified. I dont know if the ECM is modified because i didnt check it nor i thought it is worth my time checking at this current moment. The ignition lock had a part removed where the key should be inserted.
Re: Where is the "Starter Enable Relay" and how to bypass it?
Originally Posted by OrangeBird
And if it's not the roll pin at the bottom of the distributor driven gear , your "Timing Chain" has broken and is a very common , easy repair for any mechanic . The fact that the distributor don't turn most certainly is your lack of spark , but the solid security light (VATS) leads me to believe like I said earlier that you have two separate problems going on .
With this new info , here's my best guess ;
You say you think the original distributor wasn't turning either ?
Well , if this is true , your timing chain broke , and in the process of trying to determine why there was no spark , one of the two mechanics you had working on it messed up something to do with VATS , putting the light on .
Now , your engine is NOT "blown" , at worst you'll likely need the timing chain (and gears) replaced and the VATS light properly troubleshot and repaired . THEN your engine WILL run , no "Blown" about it .
For a supposed "Mechanic" to "diagnose" a "blown engine" from the distributor not turning tells me you need to find YET another mechanic , one who preferably understands how engines work .
Just for clarification ; "Blown" , in engine language , usually happens at a very high RPM , one of the pistons or connecting rods for the pistons , fractures and the broken metal flails around in there tearing up all kinds of other metal (like the block itself) and this happens with an almost explosion like sound . It literally sounds like a bomb was detonated under the hood !
Now , since you heard no horrible "BANG !!!!" when it quit , your timing chain broke , one of two blokes screwed the pooch on your VATS with their uneducated troubleshooting , and it'll run again when the distributor turns (new chain) and the VATS light is off (proper electronic troubleshooting & repair)
Good luck with it , and please report back your progress ....
OrangeBird do you think that the valves might be bent even if the timing chain broke?
Re: Where is the "Starter Enable Relay" and how to bypass it?
Originally Posted by OrangeBird
.........Thankfully our engines are not the kind that automatically destroy the valves when the cam stops turning........
Originally Posted by Dr34m
OrangeBird do you think that the valves might be bent even if the timing chain broke?
Everything I've ever read about our 2.8 , and having a chain break on a 2.8 , that did not damage valves , is a pretty good indicator that you'll be fine with the new chain (and gears) . Thing to do here is , do the chain , it needs doing anyway , and then after that you can do a compression check if you want to , to see if any cylinders are abnormally low , before ya go thinking of pulling any heads off . My best guess is that your gonna be fine with the chain and the valves will be OK ....
07-13-2016, 12:37 PM
I hope that made sense of it for you . 
One other thing to note ;
. Europe yeah...
