Couldn't find a forum section for AC specifically but though Cooling was close! I'm getting my 85 IROC painted this year and I'm dead set on reducing the ugly garbage under the hood as much as possible including battery relocation, wiper delete, and most importantly get rid of the monstrosity in the back left corner, the evaporator, drier, and blower. Looks like the Vintage Air Surefire Kit is the way to go...that being said, does anyone have any experience with the following?

I have an entire aftermarket March serp setup including the March MCH-P411 compressor. Does anyone know of this is compatible with the Vintage Air kit?

I also have a brand new stock condenser in the car. Is this VA kit compatible or does it require a specific condenser?

Also, this is a carbureted engine with no plans to change the powerplant. The only thing I would consider is changing the carb with a Holley EFI down the road. Does this kit have any issues adapting to either set up?

Car will never leave Florida so not planning on connecting the heater core to reduce hose under the hood.

Any insight from the third Gen guys would be much appreciated! Planning on calling vintage air as well but want to hear from you guys and your first hand experience.

 

I did a Vintage Air Magnum IV system almost 10 years ago and had to source everything individually and fabricate the duct work. I had to replace all of the duct work with the kit that Vintage Air made available a couple of years ago. My suggestion would be to get the complete Gen V direct fit kit and use everything in the kit. The compressor, condenser, and evaporator are made to work with each other without the guesswork. Trying to troubleshoot the system after it’s installed is very frustrating and time consuming, just use the kit.

 

See your other post for my insight.

 

The aftermarket systems will never have the airflow CFM or BTU capacity of the stock system. In your Florida climate you are going to have to decide if Looks > Function.

 

This is also correct. My VA system at full tilt is like normal AC on low. Just takes the edge off and keeps the glass clear.

 

Yes sir! Here in Texas my choice is the GM HVAC case everytime because I actually like to feel like I am in a refrigerator when it is 115F outside and when it is 10F outside I want a heater that can keep the windshield clear.

 

this is not correct.
the gen 4 and now gen 5 units are way more powerful than gm blowers.
theyre actually spal fans and work really good.

 

It is correct. I have been around both generations. A properly sealed and functioning GM system drastically outperforms the VA trash. A few years ago I actually ripped a GenV back out of a square body C10 and put the GM system back into it. The Gen5 VA system in that C10 reminded me of the 1980 C10 that I grew up in that had ARA add on air. Over 90F outside might as well roll down the windows. Swapped the GM system back into it and you could hang meat in that cab on the hottest day. I put a GM system into that 1980 C10 that is still in the family as well. I have a front dash air only G20 van that will freeze you out of it in Texas summer heat too. The stock GM blower that was the same one as these cars GM 1580666 in it blew strong enough you can feel the airflow all the way at the back cargo doors. I did upgrade that van to the stronger 15 passenger van front blower and matching underhood evaporator case when I rebuilt the ac system but it only made a minimal improvement from the stock unit.

I have a rear ac unit with a Spal blower as well. It does not move nearly as much airflow as the OE GM rear system either. That Spal blower motor also cost 3x more than a GM AC Delco replacement when it failed.

 

That's disappointing. I was considering one for the near future. But my biggest concern, with all the components inside the car, was how loud or annoying it might sound in the cabin, not whether or not it would function efficiently. Another concern is, in their installation videos, they say that it might not fit correctly in some cars. I've wondered if that might be 85-92 Firebirds, with the radio pod and tight space behind it.

But I ALWAYS have to tops off anyway, so I've only used the AC, maybe, 5 times since the car was new in 1987, so I'll be able to get along without it, or it might be sufficient enough take away the burn, if I need it. Besides, I like the design and all of it being hidden inside and opening up the engine bay.

I'd wonder if the R134 is the weakness, but all of my newer cars have always blown cold, so it's not likely to be that. Could all of the working components being inside the car be adding heat from operating, making it harder for the system to cool down the inside?

 

The fact it is all inside the vehicle requires it be much more compact than the GM setups. Smaller evaporator core and smaller heater core which reduces their BTU capacity. The ducting itself also becomes smaller. I would be interested to see the BTU capacity on the largest VA unit. I am sure it is considerably less than the GM unit and the CFM is definitely far less. VA5 unit in that C10 blew like a reconditioned factory C10 setup did on the 2nd blower speed notch. The GM setup blew like a hurricane on high in comparison.

I kept hearing people complain about how poorly GM AC systems of this era blow. I took an anemometer and made a comparison between the 1987 G20 van I have and both my 2011 Pathfinder and 2019 Titan that also have fantastic AC systems. The G20 van did not have any less blow than either Nissan product from the vents. They all read in the 12-14 mph range on high fan speed with the Pathfinder actually blowing the lowest speed. The F-cars have the same blower motor as the van so it is definitely not a weak blower motor issue. It is the evaporator cores being choked with 30+ years of debris. In my test the GM actually blew the hardest before the AD244 alternators voltage regulator temperature compensation cut back the charging voltage back to 13V from about 14V on a "cold" start.

1987 GM at hot idle. It reached nearly 15 mph with 14V on the electrical system which helps the initial cool down quite a bit.


2019 Titan. This truck has a brushless PWM blower motor that runs at the same RPM regardless of system voltage. Flat line fan speed at just under 13 mph.


Here is 30+ years of garbage in a GM evaporator core. This one only had 104K miles when I tore it apart. The HVAC case was packed half full of the same rotting mess as well.



HVAC case from the blower resistor opening prior to opening it up. Evaporator core was half covered.

 

Getting rid of the factory "ugly garbage" and replacing it with aftermarket garbage to accomplish the same objective? Sounds like an exercise in futility to me. Since you are deleting your battery and wipers you might as well go a little further and delete that big ugly engine. Cut a hole in the floor and go full Fred Flintstone. That would be nice and clean under the hood, plus extra ventilation to make up for your lack of A/C in that Florida weather.

 

Lots of REAL R12 available in Florida on FB and CL.

https://www.facebook.com/marketplace...2-7b2d04632a49

I have had great luck with Four Seasons brand new AC parts! I installed a new compressor, dryer, orifice on my 1989 IROC Z Vert. I flushed out the evaporator and vacuumed out the "Suitcase" (box where evaporator lives). It cools EXCELLENT!
Get your AC part numbers from rockauto .com and run them on Amazon...especially if you have Amazon Prime, with free shipping.

I did the same job on my 1979 "Bandit" Trans Am, my 2003 Lincoln Town Car and a few other vehicles. All work great.

 

My engine is gorgeous thank you! More of a show car than daily driver.

Thanks for the input. Sounds like you kept the factory AC design?

 

Man I'm not gunna lie this is actually very disappointing and kind of steering me in the direction of just deleting the AC completely since I'd only be taking it out in ideal conditions. I guess I could delete it now and always add the VA kit in the future? Anyone see an issue with that? Just would have to drill the fire wall through the new paint is the only issue I can see? Has anyone installed the new Surefit systems and had GOOD results? I'm sure tons of people have done analysis on temperature and fan speed results before and after on the older muscle cars. I'm going to look around.

 

i need to get one of those meters to do some checking.
im in az, and dont have any complaints with the VA systems i have installed.

im curious, and instead of talkin out my @ss, id like to have real time info like you have provided..

 

I am also interested if you have ever had a properly resealed and reconditioned GM setup in like new condition operating as a comparison point? GM used a lot of foam to insulate the ducting, evaporator core, etc that degrades. I have ended up liking a denser vinyl like weather strip used for doors/windows on houses. It holds up far better, cheap and easy to work with. I usually also tape the duct connections under the dash with metal duct tape to further prevent leaks something I have not done on that 87 yet. I just new evaporator and blower motor in it, rebuilt the refrigerant side and rolled with it. I seal the evaporator case to the firewall with butyl strip caulk. I had an 87 S15 Jimmy, an 83 and 87 G20 van, a 1971 ElCamino SS and several C10s I have rebuilt the systems on and have never been dissapointed. You could nearly hang meat in those vehicles on the hottest day. I recently rebuilt the refrigerant side of my 97 Express as well and it is like a walk in beer cooler on a hot day.

 

Its also going to depend on your entire system. Im running true duals that go right under the floor along with a shaved engine bay which traps heat. This all works against the VA system but wouldn't hurt it as bad in a more mild setup. Also, some people think 70 degrees is freezing whereas I am looking to hang meat in mine.

I blows cold but the fan volume could be doubled in my opinion.

 

Same here! I want to feel airflow and I want it ice cold now. All the GM systems I have had did that even the front dash air only G20 van I have. Turn the ac on in 100F on a sunny day and it drops the interior temps from ~130F to comfortable in a few minutes atleast up front. On that 87 G20 I do not even roll the windows down, just select outside air and then switch to recirculate when the interior starts to cool down below ambient temp which is all of like a block in city driving. When it is a 110-115F outside it takes a bit longer but 90% of the US does not have that extreme heat, so 95-100F is a good point of reference for the average AC user. When I had my 1980 C3 I would cruise around in 95-100F with the windows up, T-Tops off and the ac blasting yet still feel cool. I would not put the T-tops back on it until it was over 100F.

 

YES. I have original design AC components and OE Spec refrigerant, on my current 7 vehicles. I have owned approx. 54 vehicles and tried a R12 to R134 conversion, once or twice. The performance was not satisfactory to me. I tried one, Reman AC compressor in my 25 years in the Auto Repair Business and lifetime as a DIY Car Guy. Said Reman AC compressor was junk, never again, only new for me.