what are my options to hypertech chips? previously, I posted an installation question, only to finally determine that the chip that I bought wouldn't work, even though the part number was correct fo the car.

I've been told that the PROM would need to be removed from the car and sent out for programming... the chip cannot be programmed through a cable, while in the car?

what else can i do to change the stock programming?

1986 TA, 305, tpi, auto, headers, exhuast, comp 256 cam...

thanks!

 

Honestly I used to Run a Hypertech Thermomaster many many moons ago. I found it cost alot more than I wanted to pay and didn't notice any noticeable gains.. You would be better off going through

www.moates.net and getting the chip adapters, burner and blanks and learning how to program your own for the same price that you could get 1 thermo-master prom.... Takes some practice and alot of reading but it is very very doable.

 

ibmtech vbmenu_register("postmenu_3412387", true); .... an IBM Technician...??? couldn't some one with some brains answer me??!!

ha ha... anyway... did you experience significant gains with programming and burning you own code?

maybe I could just sent you a chip, you burn your code, sent it back to a then happy guy... if it would be good to run my slightly modified 305 tpi...

hook me up, brah....

 

Yes, I have written code for IBM for a long time.. My code won't work on your computer.. I am running a 1227749 ECM where I am sure you are using either a 165 maf ecm or a 1227730 ECM. Each car has it own setup from VE to internals. My engine is not anywhere near what you have... So my programming won't work on your car.

There are not significant gains that are noticeable from using anyone's pre programmed Prom chips. The only way to get your VE running right is to datalog your ecm while driving and tune from there. And yes you will notice gains if you do it yourself and it is done right.

couldn't some one with some brains answer me.. <--- At a loss for words.?

 

IBMTech... i was trying to be funny. Obviously, you know what you're doing... sorry for any offense...

 

Go with Jet Performance. My car used to shift at wot at about 4700 rpm. Now is shifts at wot at 5500 rpm. Much better throttle response too. cost is $214.90 with shipping.

 

Just for comparison......

Total cash investment by me, about $100.
What I got for that....
Pocket Programmer ( used-ebay ) box of chips ( ebay ) various sockets ( ebay )
Results : 100% increase in milage ( OK, it WAS poor to start with )
Significantly noticable increase in torque ( broken parts to prove it )
Cooler running, especially towing.
Education. ( priceless )
OK, I've invested time, just like everyone else who's DIY, but it's the journey, not the destination that's been REALLY worth the trip.

Would my code run your car ? Oh, H377 no ! Would it cost you more $$ than DIY ? You bet !!
Would you be better off doing it yourself ? Hey, ask a stupid question......
Don't trust me, but read the forum. You can't buy this stuff anywhere.

 

That is what I trying to tell you earlier.. I bought the Auto-prom from Moates.net and soon to have an Ostrich. This is more costly but comes out with the same results. The Main Advantage is that I can emulate and run my car in real time and make adjustments elements on the fly..
With the pocket programmer you still have to datalog your car.. You have to remove the (EEPROM) each time to program for each adjustment.
With the auto-prom, you can leave the car running, make an adjustment, then go for a drive. Then, when you are ready, flip a switch and burn your chip in the the auto-prom.. This investment is around $375 though.

If you are limited in cash flow.. Buying a pocket programmer, chips, and adapters is a better price.. Either way, you will get the same result ultimately in the end.

 

The transmissions in our cars aren't computer controlled.

 

TRUE !
In the begining, when I started into this, I wish I had known, and that some of this stuff was available. I didn't, it wasn't.
There were a very few "performance" chips out there, but not for my combo. In retrospect, they didn't do much useful anyway, and they were north of $300 each.
Since then, I've become very much a forensic kinda guy. Data log, analyze, decide, adjust, data log again. Real time has little value *to me* for where I'm at, now, but that's me.

Ultimately, yes you will. Same destination, different route.
Today, the EBL Flash from dynamicEFI.com is looking attractive, eliminating the burners, and all that, but to me, for other reasons.

Bottom line, the knowledge and experience from doing it yourself, not to mention the possibility of a perfect tune FOR YOU, you just can't buy that at any price.

 

Better look into that statement again.. It tells the transmission quite a bit of information.. You must not have looked at the side of your 700R4 Trans and seen the 4 wire plug wire attached to it.

 

Nope.

The torque convertor lockup is the only computer controlled function. Shift points, etc are all mechanically controlled. The 4 pin connector has the following signals (really only three wires to the 4 pins):

+12 v
lockup signal (ground from the ECM)
4th gear signal.

The ecm knows ONLy when the transmission is in 4th gear. Then, it uses the speed of the car and the manifold pressure (or load variable in a MAF car) to determine the load and when it is appropriate to lockup the convertor.
To lockup the convertor, the ECM grounds the lockup wire, which activates a fluid solenoid that uses the fluid pressure from the 2nd gear circuit to lockup the convertor. The convertor CAN lock up in all gears except first.


I know this because I made my own wiring harness for my car when I converted to megasquirt, so I needed to know how the lockup function worked.

 

Can you explain why these options are available in my 7749 ecm then..

1ST GEAR - TPS THRESH FOR SHIFTLIGHT ON
1ST GEAR - UPPER N/V RATIO WINDOW
1ST GEAR - LOWER N/V RATIO WINDOW
1ST GEAR - MIN RPM FOR LIGHT ON
1ST GEAR - MIN TPS FOR LIGHT ON
1ST GEAR - LIGHT ON DELAY TIME
1ST GEAR - TPS HYSTERESIS FOR LIGHT ON
1ST GEAR - LIGHT ON DELAY TIME

I know most of these are for Stick Shifts

This is repeated for 1 - 4 gear

Now for the TCC which you were talking about

TCC LOWER TEMP LIMIT
TCC HYSTERESIS FOR KCOAST1/2
TCC ROAD SPEED COAST LEVEL
TCC LOW MPH COAST LOAD LIMIT
TCC HIGH MPH COAST LOAD LIMIT
TCC -DELTA THROTTLE POS. UNLOCK LIMIT
TCC +DELTA THROTTLE POS. UNLOCK LIMIT
TCC DELAY BEFORE LOCK (CONDITIONS MET)
TCC COAST RELEASE LOCK (LOW ROAD SPEED)
TCC COAST RELEASE LOCK (HIGH ROAD SPEED)
TCC ROAD SPEED UPPER LOCK LIMIT (3RD GEAR)
TCC ROAD SPEED LOWER LOCK LIMIT (3RD GEAR)

And now the kicker..

F29C BASE VE ~VS~ RPM & MAP (CLOSED THROTTLE)
F29 BASE VE ~VS~ RPM & MAP

F29C is to be adjusted when car is at idle in Park or Neutral to get your VE tables to 128 INT and BLM.. and F29 is to be adusted when car is in Drive or Reverse.

As you can tell , I am not running a 7165 or 7730 ecm.. I am using the $58 mask.. I know the ecm is supposed to control all functions of the conditions of what the engine is telling the ECM.. But doesn't it appear that the ECM getting more info from the trans than just the TCC.

 

The park neutral switch is located on the shifter, not the transmission.

Like I said, it gets the vehicle speed from the VSS. (From the sensor at the back of the speedometer on earlier cable driven cars, from the tailshaft of the transmission on later cars)

I'm not making anything up... The 700R4 is by no means a computer controlled transmission. The ECM ONLY controls TCC lockup.

 

I believe you 100%.. I am curious about a few things that I needed to get cleared up. I am having a small VSS issue on my car now as I don't have a Speedo Cable running from the trans to the Speedo.. I installed a Cyberdyne digital Dash many many moons ago and lost my VSS signal to the ecm. I am going to install the Dakota Digital Dash that has that capability in the near future. I was just wondering why the Programming in Rt Tuner Pro and C.A.T.S. has so much information concerning the trans, If only the lockup is controlled.

 

I am not really sure on that!

My car is an early car (85) and has no such option. I see TCC temperature on your list. I am unaware of any TCC temp sensors, but that doesnt mean it doesnt exist! I think we should do some more research on this.

All the other TCC functions you listed are just to provide a smooth ride and keep the car from bucking or putting undue stress on the locked convertor.

 

just for the record...

I purchase a Hypertech chip, pn 11611, through Townsend Performance in Tucson. The installation instructions didn't jive with what I saw inside the ECM. Finally, I got through to Hypertech to learn that I had ordered the wrong part...

for a 1986 TA, 305, TPI, part number is 126001.

Also, the chip in the car appears to be soldered-in and not socketed, making removal more complicated. The Hypertech chip is supposed to install first, then the original factory chip is piggyback on top.

not sure what I'll do... depends on how much credit I get for the wrong chip. Ultimately, I'd like to try my own programming...

 

I checked their website.. I came up with 126002 for TPI or 11612 for 4BBL carb.

http://performance.speedycarparts.co...5&brandid=4446

I don't quite understand their method.. They used to plug into the standard ECM slot which looked like a plain ECU.. Now they appear to be like the ones on Moates.net which is what I use.. PiggyBacked..

http://www.moates.net/product_info.p...products_id=32

I personally still wouldn't use another preprogrammed chip as I found massive differences in what your engine really wants if you have modded it at all ~VS~ what the chip can give you.

 

Alright then tell me why when I was running a stock ecm and prom (for a 305) for my 86 it used to stall out at low speeds ( I have a 1974 350 tpi set up) After I bought the stage one jet performance chip for an 87 350 the car stopped stalling at low speeds and the shift points were a lot longer. If I floor it from a dead stop it will shift out of 1st gear t about 6000 rpm wherer as with the stock 305 prom it would shift at about 4700-5000 rpm.

 

The shift points are not computer controlled.

 

Exactly, The shift points don't have anyrthing to do with where the car shifts.. But, as the previous message says, It does change the engine performance only.

I was just trying to get clarification on a 1227749 ECM with a $58 mask on why it has so much information on the trans if all it controls is the TC.

Still a mystery to me.

 

Earlier, you said ( or somehow alluded to ) being a programmer.
No matter, as long as you understand logic.
Look closely at exactly *what* tranny info is in that chip, and *where* and it should become clear(er) as to what they are doing, and why.
Remember, the TCC is not designed to slip *at all* !!
It's a binary function. On, or off.
Not being familiar with that particular mask, you may find different spark tables based on tranny info, because the *load* curve is different. The shift light on a manual may have different points for the same reason.
All sorts of reasons to know what the trans is doing, whether it's directly controlled, or not.
Remember too, CATS and TunerPro simply respond to the definition file as to what someone thought was at that location in the chip when they wrote the def. May be right ( mostly, they are ) or may not.
Mine has a bunch of TCC stuff, and no TCC in the trans, but it does "control" ( "suggest" would be a better word ) the electric kick down by means of the TCC programming !
When you chase the code, some of it becomes much clearer real fast, and some of it just becomes more confusing !

 

Yeah, didn't really think of it that way. Suggest would be a better way to put it. That does shed some light on it though. I was having a mental block and the time and never really sat down to contemplate what it was actually doing? I still think it is easier to program Software for Home computers than cars.. Home comupters I feel aren't as tempormental.

 

You havn't used windows much have you

 

Back to the original question, there are options. Hypertech is one, Superchips is another, but none will work as well as a chip tuned for YOUR machine.
There are two options there. Find a reputable tuner to do it for you, or DIY.
When I last looked, there were no reputable tuners within budget ( $1000 at that time ) and none at all anywhere near me, so DIY was pretty much my only option.
There was no EBL then, so burners, erasers, home-made adapters and such were my route.
Now, there is EBL, Ostrich, and other neat stuff. Tuning is still DIY, but with these other options all the burners, adapters, and such can be totally eliminated, and for about the same money as a "custom" catalog chip.
Today, EBL with a serial-USB dongle provides logging, near real-time data displays, changing calibrations on the fly, even "burning" a new one while rolling ( within limits ) with a few mouse clicks.
Today, I'd still recommend DIY, but you'll have it SO much easier than anyone who has done it in the past, but still the same education and experience as far as tuning the machine.
There is so much more JUST over the horizon, but one no longer need learn machine assembler to program an ECM.
Go slow, and enjoy the ride !

 

Alright if the shift points arn't computer controlled then they would be a fixed point. That being then it wouldn't matter what throttle position you were at the vehicle would always shift at the same spot, which of course is not true.

 

They are controlled by:

transmission load
RPM
Throttle position (TV, which attatches to the throttle body)

 

so whats this governor pressure sensor do? I have a 700r4. Since it is a sensor then doesn't it have to feed its data somewhere

 

Now you're talking about automatic transmissions, all of which ( up to the 4L80 or so ) have hydraulics.
The hydraulics will take over and cause shifts based on load, speed, hydraulic pressure.....
Not so in the 4L80E and later, all of the 6LXX series. They ARE computer controlled, in some cases via the vehicle LAN.
If you thought wrenching would get easier, you were mislead !

 

Well, I personally like Linux.. But, unless you have an AS4000 and 8 workstations sitting in your house, You really wouldn't know would you?

 

 

ABSOLUTELY TRUE! Only the L460E (the E is for electronic) is the only transmission that is electronically controlled and it was not used until the 4th gens. Those cars use a PCM (for Powertrain Control Module) while our cars use an ECM (Engine Control Module).

The shift light (on a manual car) is controlled and the Torque Convertor is controlled by these cars. There are extra inputs (to the P/N switch) which the ECM uses to control the functioning of the IAC and various other idle functions.

No offense, but often people who buy an "off-the-shelf" eprom suffer from "the placebo effect". I have looked inside virtually EVERY "off-the-shelf" eprom there is, and frankly, they modify VERY LITTLE. We call them "Hyperjunk" for a good reason.

Typically, they add a little spark, add a little fuel, change the locking speed of the convertor (if an auto) and possibly change the temperature of the fan operation (if designed for a lower temp t-stat). When taken to an actual dyno, they typically result in little (if any) gain in HP and more often will result in LESS power.

The reason they usually result in less power; the stock eproms are overly rich from the factory and if you tuned a "bone stock" engine, you usually need to REMOVE fuel (not add) to get more performance. Also, the stock engine is very prone to detonation. The extra spark just results in triggering the Knock Sensor sooner and even more timing being pulled out.

Controlling the spark curve to minimize the amount of spark pulled out and having the smoothest curve possible usually results in the BEST performance. The stock programming on your typical L98 has around 30-32* of spark advance in WOT or P/E (depends on your model year/ecm/calibration). I have NEVER seen a stock L98 handle this much advance without causing the knock sensor pull timing out & usually (after the knock sensor kicks in), they are lucky if they get 20* of REAL spark advance.

With proper control and lots of testing, the typical L98 can handle 23*-28* of spark advance before the knock sensor kicks in. Only with a good rebuild and different heads can you get more spark advance...which isn't necessarily a good thing either. Some heads are designed to run with a low spark advance.

I say this with having done TONS of testing on a lot of engines with a lot of dyno runs (and then down to the track). If a person doubts my comments, I suggest taking your car to the track, run it with the stock eprom a couple of times and then run it with your "off-the-shelf" eprom. Some do find a gain (but usually their engine was already modified and needed more fuel and spark), but most do not see any gain and others (usually basically stock) see a loss in performance.