Ghostshorts2000

Tuned Performance

iTrader: (92)

Ghostshorts2000

Tuned Performance

iTrader: (92)

Wookiee

Let me jump in here to clarify. I'm his dad and the car will turn over fine but won't fire. I think it's flooded.
A little more background info is helpful here.
He's correct, we had our shop convert the car to speed density w/EBL Flash II. Picked the car up yesterday and it ran fine. (now he says it seemed a bit sluggish). He drove it home, washed it, then drove to get gas and back home fine. Parked it in the garage and in the evening we smelled gas. Still strong gas smell this am and car won't start. It'll crank but not start.

Tip from BobR was to hold pedal to floor and start to clear flood mode. And look for any fuel leaks. I'm not home from work yet to try this. But if we can clear the flooded state, I'm wondering what caused it to flood in the 1st place.
We're very new to the wold of tuning and i have not yet even installed TunerPro yet on a laptop. if we can get it to start and run again, that'll be our next step so that we can see what's going on w/it i suppose. Anything specific to look for? I read some threads about adjusting the crank - prime PW tables, but that's beyond our ability at the moment. Maybe we can start w/some VE Learns I suppose.

Tuned Performance

iTrader: (92)

Aviator857

What is the car set up? Is it a stock 88 TPI 305 or 350? or is it a V6? or is this a engine swapped (ls1 etc) car?

The smell of gas could simply be the evap system for the tank is stuck open or the charcoal canister has been removed or disconnected. If its in a flooded state you may have a sticking fuel injector letting the residual fuel pressure drain off into the engine, but unless it got into a self siphoning state I doubt it would be enough fuel to flood it-- Actually I've only ever seen one flooded TPI car and as you suggested I got it to crank by cranking it over with the pedal on the mat and when it started to fire I feathered it until it cranked then it was fine from then on out.

The white/black smoke though could point to a deeper engine problem but its hard to tell.

Wookiee

It's a stock 5.7 TPI

One thing to note is prior to getting it to the shop for the SD conversion, on our last attempt to get a working MAF in the car, we bought and installed a reman AC Delco and the car fired right up but immediately starting running SUPER rich. That's when we threw up our hands and had it towed to the shop. That was about 4-5 weeks ago. Is it possible that when it was running so rich it jacked up an injector?

I don't have a fuel pressure guage to test bleed down. I'm hoping that it's just a fluke issue and/or residual issue from the rich running condition that will clear if we get it started again. (fingers crossed).

Wookiee

I'll also try to pull a couple of plugs to see if they're fouled out.

Aviator857

I would run some really good injector cleaner or get a shop to clean them.

If it does it again I would get it running and unplug battery and see if it does it with no battery power. If it does my gut says new injectors... Maybe try some cheapos from eBay. You could also pull them from intake and put water bottles on each injector, turn on fuel pump and see if any leaks out. Don't try to crank it like that.

Plugs may tell you if only certain injector or all...

If it turns out to be a stuck injector then that may have been issue all along not the sensors causing it to run rich.

Wookiee

Aviator857

That's good yes the tank filler neck has a metal to metal slip joint that is notorious for leaking. Especially since it's a pain to get the filler in the right spot when putting the tank in, people end up tweaking it. Mine would leak out if I parked it on an incline with a full tank... Though I fixed that with a tank from a 2000 along with the ls1 swap

If it keeps running rich and flooding out I would suspect the injectors... A new fuel filter and a couple of tanks of gas with a good injector cleaner may help... Or it could be too far gone and just need new ones.

Wookiee

IROCThe5.7L

The engine is definitely flooded after sitting if it will start with the throttle open as it cuts off the injectors when cranking. I had a similar issue years ago. I had a few leaky fuel injectors. I monitored my fuel pressure after turning the car off. Here's a graph I made of the fuel pressure bleed off as I'm a nerd.


This was enough to have to do two VERY long cranks before it would catch and start. Injector cleaner did not work. I had to send all the injectors to https://www.cruzinperformance.com/ to have them disassembled, cleaned, new o rings...etc They did a fantastic job. Another thing to check is your fuel pressure regulator. After you turn off the car, pull the vacuum line off of it and make sure there's not raw fuel in the line.

If you do narrow it down to the injectors. It wouldn't hurt to do a quick ohm test on them to make sure they're all in spec. If any fail, you're better off just junking them and buying a new set.

Wookiee

So here's an update. After dealing w/the flooded starts, we took the car back to the shop that did the EBL Flash II install to check out the injectors etc for us. They kept it for a week and said they had no issues w/the car. In fact, when i called this am, the owner said the car sat for the last 4 days (holiday week) and this am he opened the door, did not even sit in the car and cranked it and it fired up immediately. They didn't touch a thing. They think it's possible that the new ECM needed some time/key cycles to get proper readings. This sounds plausible I suppose. I've read that after a MAF change for example, sometimes you have to start the car a few times, or even unplug the battery long enough to reset the ECM, right? I guess the good news is it seems to be starting fine. We haven't picked the car up from the shop yet though. Maybe they just have the magic touch.
Oh, and for the gas smell, I really think it was a simple case of over filling it because A.) we isolated the smell to be strongest right at or near the filler neck, and B.) after we got it started w/clear flood mode (pedal fully down) he drove it a few days and while we were still having the starting issue, but the gas smell was gone. We found zero leaks. It's possible the filler neck is leaking though. but not bad enough to leave any on the ground.

Aviator857

Thanks for the update. That is good -- though I have found that problems that "fix themselves" come back. My advice is to drive the car, and drive it hard (don't get a ticket or wreck it)... but to push the injectors, fuel pump, etc. Let the ECM learn all its parameters. Its possible that the injectors were stuck and freed up, its possible that it the ecm just had to learn its new world. Heck the ECM could of left the fuel vent open or the fuel cap not fully on.

The filler neck fill the tank and park it so that the driver side is down hill on a steep hill and see if it leaks. It could also be the o-ring on the fuel pump leaking if you over fill it. Either you can live with though with ethanol fuel it will absorb moisture from the air, and well in a wreck any fuel leak could be an issue.
Different ecu's have different methods for learning. I'm a little rusty on the old TPI set up, my car was a TBI before I did the LS1 swap.

Wookiee

Well problem is back. I guess I'll be adding a fuel pressure tester to my tool box. I might be able to rent one from an auto parts store. Got the car back late in the evening so no time to troubleshoot last night. I'll be checking for gas in the oil, and testing the pressure asap.
WRT to the FPR, is that the only way to isolate it as the culprit if there's raw fuel in the vacuum line? And would a faulty FPR allow the car to run fine once started? The car idles great and runs fine once it's started.
I don't suppose there's any way to isolate which injector/s may be faulty if that's the case? I may just verify w/the gauge and order new ones.

If we plan to slightly mod this car, would it be worth going w/higher rate injectors now even tho the engine is stock at this point? IOW, will stock injectors be wasted money down the road?

Oh, and IROCThe5.7L, in your graph above, that was from the leaking injectors, right? What would a good reading look like? should it hold 42'ish PSI for hours?

Aviator857

The fuel pressure dropping after you shut down can be pump, regulator, or injectors, as well as leaks, but based on the other evidence it all points to the injectors if it drops.

Check with your tuner and see if they can compensate for the larger injectors with the stock engine. I would say its ok to go a little bigger (rich is always better than lean) but I don't know how much the ECU can correct for. Though also you don't want to go modding with an unknown problem.

More than likely the cylinder(s) that has the bad injector is running rich all the time, pull the spark plugs and look for ones that show signs of rich running. You can also pull the injectors and fuel rail place 8 coke bottles on top of the engine with the injectors in the bottles hooked up to the fuel rail turn on the ignition key (a few times to cycle the pump or jump the relay to turn on the fuel pump) and see if any of them leak out. I don't recall does the v8 TPI have the additional cold start injector, but this one squirts fuel when you crank without the ECU commands.

The injectors exchange with a lot of cars so you could go junkyard searching and some really cheap ones can be had on ebay.

Wookiee

Aviator857

My gut says injectors. If the leak down was at the pump it would take a few seconds to crank to get fuel to the injectors and pressure up but it would simply crank. The vacuum lines are clean so if the intake is getting flooded when it sits I personally would replace the injectors, fuel filter. But if replacing them and it still having an issue stresses you I would find someone who can bench test and clean them.

Aviator857

Could always set up a test rig, just make sure you secure the injectors so the don't pop off when you pressurize the rail.

https://youtu.be/Q5NNtgKmDkk

Wookiee

Injectors are on order. 24# Bosch D3's from SouthBay (sku:1038).

Aviator857

Sounds good do the fuel filter also just to be safe and protect the new injectors. Just be warned they like to self siphon and drench you in gas. If you can pull the fuel pump relay with the car running to suck most of the fuel out of the lines and jack the front of the car up vs the rear it should lower the risk. (filter is driver rear under the car basically under the back seat bucket)

Let us know how it works out-- reading up the TPI injectors are known for issues.

I've noticed I'm not maintaining pressure in my LS1 swapped car after I shut down. I'm 99% sure the issue is the pump or regulator which is also in the tank. I knew I should of replaced that before I put in the tank... at least the 4th gen tank I have in my 89 is easier to take in and out. Its a pretty rapid drop in pressure so I think the pump is back flowing.

Tuned Performance

iTrader: (92)

Tuned Performance

iTrader: (92)

Wookiee

Aviator857

Looks like the egr valve, not sure if that is a sensors for egr or what.

Wookiee

Aviator857

It will trip check engine but shouldn't effect operation, so depending on emissions testing where you live.... And resell... I'm not going to advise to delete emissions but I think so, my egr was dead in my 305 for years I just ignored the light. But you should be able to delete it in the ecm.

Get it running then worry about it.

Wookiee

Tuned Performance

iTrader: (92)

Wookiee

Tuned Performance

iTrader: (92)

Wookiee

Tuned Performance

iTrader: (92)

Wookiee

Tuned Performance

iTrader: (92)

Wookiee

Wookiee

Tuned Performance

iTrader: (92)

southbay08

you will not have to worry about the clips, you don't need them. The pressure from the rail will hold them in place without a problem.The double orings will work. Just put them into the intake manifold first. Make sure the second oring is visible on the outside of the intake manifold and you'll be fine.

Wookiee

Aviator857

Let us know how it goes once its together, I always hate when I post answers and you never hear back from the guy... you are thinking well I wanted to know if that solved it LOL. FWIW those injectors should be reliable the factory injectors are known for issues.

Learned something new about the EGR on the TPI car with this thread.

Wookiee

I will definitely continue to update this thread. One of the gems of this site is that nearly all issues have at some point been encountered and I've learned a ton just be searching on here. I'v been an unregistered "member" for about 2 years now. lol. But agreed, x% of the threads just die w/no closure.
I'm very grateful for the quick and concise response from this board.

Wookiee

Quick update. Not done yet. Adding the extra o-ring helped. But ran into a few snags. Nothing major but enough to make me call it a night before finishing...
A few bolts on the plenum started to cross-thread and had to take it out and clean them up w/a tap. easy peasy. After cursing the name of all 80's era GM engineers while trying to reconnect the electrical to the bottom of the plenum, flashlight in mouth, and all three hands to get it connected, reinstalled plenum to then find out I forgot to route the TV cable under the runners..... so it's gotta come back off again.
On a side note, the passenger side runner, lower front bolt...... SONOFAB*&CH!!! Cold start injector..... SONOFAB*&CH!!!

Tuned Performance

iTrader: (92)

Wookiee

Aviator857

Glad to hear it. Probably would not hurt to do plugs after your tune it's been rich for a while and I bet the spark plugs show that.

Personally I would also do a new oil filter and fuel filter also.

Wookiee

After some struggle to get the adapter cable to allow my laptop to talk to the EBL, I was able to successfully flash in the offsets for these injectors. Now we'll change the oil 2x and spark plugs. It was running a bit rough... just a tad which is likely the somewhat fouled plugs.

As for the cable, maybe this will help others, when i installed the CD from DynamicEFI, my laptop did not automatically install the proper drivers so that the adapter cable showed up under the Ports (COM & LPT) category properly. I had to (with the help of my IT guy at work) go find the proper driver and manually install it. After that I was able to connect on COM 5. I did not even realize the cable itself was a device that required a driver. I just assumed it was some kind of USB cable. I think the reason it didn't automatically install the drivers was because it's a windows 8.1 machine. Anyway, we worked it out. I read in the existing bin, saved a copy of it, edited the tables, saved it, and flashed it into bank 2 (and set that as active bank). Do i get my Tuner badge now?

Wookiee