http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...category=33742

any comments

 

I like this kit very much
the layout is the way I imagined.

 

I liked that kit to. I considered buying it then I decided to wait. I contacted the guy that made it and he said he's most likely gonna make more setups and sell them.

 

Hi, stock computer and chip, all used is a nitrous fogger with a #36
jet.


>From: turbotater@prodigy.net
>To: bermudezbrainstormingdesigns@hotmail.com
>Subject: Question for seller -- Item #2453360407
>Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2004 07:52:57 PST
>
>i am interested in the kit
>but i have questions about what
>needs to be done contolling the
>fuel and spark . did you use the
>original computer with just a different
>chip and fmu , convert to a different
>factory ecu or use an aftermarket computer
>mike


this was the response i got from him on fuel enrichment
and timing modifications . i think you would still have
30 degrees of timing or so even if you set the distributor
to zero and i don't know about being able to
make 573 rwhp as he claims with just adding a .036
fuel jet for enrichment that you would use for a 75 -100
increase with nitrous .
mike

 

I'm impressed that he was able to run the A/C, as it is very tight down there near the evaporator box. Also, where is the A/C compressor? I couldn't see it in the pictures. I removed the A/C when I made my twin turbo set-up on my 89, and I'm surprised that it can be retained due to space reasons. I wish I had mine sometimes.

I would believe 570RWHP, but it seems it would need more fuel than the .036" jet (I'm not familiar with nos kits, but I assume a 36 jet is .036"- that seems very small). Possible he used larger injectors, or raised the fuel pressure? I think it would need more fuel/timing mods than that to make that kind of power. Also note the Holley intake- if he had the right heads and cam, the engine may have been making 400hp before he added the turbo system. My 89 TT uses a stock computer with larger injectors, a rising rate regulator and an MSD BTM and makes 330rwhp, 470rwtq.

Good to see that he used heavy flanges- this makes for a more reliable set-up.

I would want to hear from one of his previous customers or see the kit myself before I spent that kind of money. If you spend some (may be a lot!) time fabricating (even without much experience) you could make something similar for a lot less. Plus you can say you made it all yourself. Just my $.02.

 

I wonder about that auction. At the end he added he can end the auction at anytime which is ok but then he put he can fuse to sell it to anyone after the end of the auction. thats against the rules and sounds shaddy. my two cents. though

 

Just thinking out loud:

That's a fairly reasonable price for a turbo kit for a 3rd gen, considering the work involved and parts cost… Hopefully he'll prove me wrong (that 3rd gen guys are too cheap to make selling a 3rd gen kit worth while), I guess we'll see in 3 days or so

He claims to be running it on a stock TPI engine with no changes besides forged pistons and the Holley stealth ram. For fueling he's using a #36 fuel jet with a nitrous works fuel solenoid opening at 3000rpm, stock tuning, 15psi boost. That doesn't add up…
- not enough fuel, a #36 jet should only be enough for about 150-160hp at 45psi, lets assume that he's actually seeing 60psi under boost, that still is only enough for something in the 180's. that suggests that the stock fuel system/ecm/chip is delivering enough fuel for well over 400hp. I doubt it.
- Not enough boost. Assuming about 70% compressor and intercooler efficiency, that's only a density ratio of about 1.83. That would suggest that his stock engine + HSR is making roughly 573hp/1.83= 313hp at the wheels before the turbo setup, or about 400hp at the crank. There is no way that is happening with anything close to stock TPI heads/cam.
- Not enough turbo. A 62-1 is good for about 60lb/min at 15psi. that translates to about 500hp at the wheels if you push it to the absolute outside of the compressor map.
- Not enough detonation control. Stock heads + stock chip + 15psi = rattle rattle pop… I suppose some combination of timing retard/chip and race gas would make it possible. With the rest of this I'd be more likely to believe that he used better/bigger heads/cam…
None of these are deal stopper, my point is just that not everything is as it appears there… that there's something wrong/missing.

 

I agree with every thing 83 Crossfire TA said. It may be a decent price for all the hardware, but I would need to see the installation myself or see a lot more pics before I layed down that much money.

 

Besides, if he's using a hobbs switch or something to kick in the nitrous system fuel solenoid, won't it be way rich until the boost climbs to the max limit, to where the fuel is dialed in? The hard goods look decent, but like Mark said, someone isn't telling the whole story...

 

I figure the guy ran it once and said, "Oh stuff, I'm gonna have to spend another $2k to make this run right", and then put it up for sale. Then he can buy the engine management stuff and injectors and do it right.

He might do better just selling the headers he made, especially since he has a machine shop.

 

I figure the guy ran it once and said, "Oh stuff, I'm gonna have to spend another $2k to make this run right", and then put it up for sale. Then he can buy the engine management stuff and injectors and do it right.

He might do better just selling the headers he made, especially since he has a machine shop.

 

I'm not sure that I agree with that part… sub optimal, definitely, but realistically, when you're making a dragstrip pass, how long to you really spend between no boost and say 75% or greater boost? On that same note, N2O kits are usually jetted to give you about 6:1 A/F ratio from the factory and still make great power, so if you're at WOT, what difference does it make if you're at 9:1 for half a second… yea, it will slow you down a little, but it will still work.

To be honest, I think he's going to hang himself on that… he may have a good setup there but people will be wary if things don't add up for them. And no one spends that kind of cash that has questions about what they're getting.

Hell, I'm watching this thing pretty carefully (I'm betting that he gets no bids and re-lists at a lower price). If he sells them for a decent price I may start whipping up manifolds/headers, down pipes… It can be done, I'm just not seeing enough interest in it to spend the time fixturing it up and doing it…

 

#36 jet is for aprox. 160 horsepower, 15 degrees retard to avoid
knocking,
that's the recipe.


this is his last response i got from him . he did not say
how he is retarding the timing 15 degrees but he
originally told me he was using the stock chip and i
did not see any external timing components like a btm .

mike

 

I dont know what the header looks like, but it is WAY back on the motor. I mean, look at how far back it sits compared to the motor. Its over the valve cover. It cant be a very intricatley built, or well thought out design without seeing much more of it. The only view you can spy of the drivers side manifold, makes it look like it sweeps back (like stock) which means at best the crossover runs under the engine and in front or just behind the k-member. At that point, its likely a LOG type manifold.

But I digress since I cannot see more of it. What it shows, is very nicely done. It looks good to me but obvisouly not ran long. Look at how golden the downpipe is. My headers looked like that for a total of about 1 1/2 hours run time. After that they started darkening up because thats what stainless does. What that tells me is that this guy has not ran the car very long.

On top of that, he cannot even type out a very good description. The guy sounds like a clown throughout the description. run on sentences and wanting to charge someone $10 to let them see a video of it. *twirling finger*

Looks good in those pics, but Im not buying it for a second.

 

I think he's lying. Just my opinion.

 

Looks to me like the DS headder just goes to the exhaust....Like many of the cheezeball ebay kits out there...Which ends up causing an imbalance...Much easier to make than dealing with crossover tube etc.. There were some kits available on ebay that just gave you a turbo and manifold for 1 side...

 

doesn't that mess stuff up and cause really wild problems (things i don't even understand yet)

 

How many people would it take for this market to catch on?

 

We've had this discussion before and barring restarting that… for a street application a properly built log is superior to a "header." For a race application you can make either work, but I'm convinced that the only reason that tubular headers abound on most of the more serious setups is for advertising/marketing reasons. There are plenty of log setups that are making thousands of hp and in racing venues where marketing isn't as big an issue you see nothing but log manifolds (ex, diesel drags…)

That somewhat depends on the grade of stainless also, but for the most part…

that goes back to my "hang himself" comments… he's either full of it or doesn't know how not to scare buyers away…


It's not really a question of volume, but more a question of price. Most people around here that would be capable of making these things do not have the capacity to make very many at a time. At the same time, most people want something along the lines of "stainless everything, with perfect TIG welds, so you can keep all your accessories, with everything included to bolt it on to a stock TPI and run 9's in an hour for $2K" which is just insane. Take a good look at what the decent Honda kits are selling for and double it and you're in a realistic price range. Or maybe what some of the mustang kits are selling for and add 20-50% to it (packaging on most Hondas or a Ford fox chassis is MUCH easier then on a 3rd or 4th gen f-body). Then also notice that most are MIG welded (done right, structurally there is no advantage with TIG over MIG, TIG is prettier, MIG is as much as 10x faster and cheaper WRT to equipment and consumables), log manifolds and mild steel. The reason that these things are turning up for 4th gens is that there are 4th gen owners that are willing to spend $$$ anywhere to go fast.

 

I've always said the same money put into a Honda or a Camaro would yield more performance gain out of the Camaro, which is why I chose a Camaro. To me it is common sense that it would cost more than a Honda as there is more routing involved, but I never thought double. At the same time the output would be way higher, as you have additional displacement starting off and a larger aftermraket support group.

Given a Honda turbo kit price of $3500 that puts a Camaro kit at about $7000. It doesn't seem cost effective as $7k can get you a built NA engine that performs at about the same level (400-500hp). If the kit would take you over 600 or 700hp with a 305 or 350 block (properly prepared, of course) then it would seem to make sense. Additionally wouldn't the kit be marketable to other body styles also as it has to be the most compact to fit here?

Jason

 

If you go with twins on your f-body you need exactly 2 of everything and the headers, down pipes… all the plumbing are more complicated. If your going with a single, again, packaging and the turbo/wastegate… typically have to be larger and 1.5-2x as expensive. Sometimes you can cheese out a little and use a smaller wastegate… but even if it works the typical extra critisizm you'd get from the peanut gallery doesn't justify the $200 you can drop off the price.

Now you're starting to see the picture, that is about what the price would have to be on the setup to make a comparable profit. Another good example is the HP performance stuff for the mustangs (mig welded, mild steel…). Their tuner kit (just exhaust side plumbing, wastegate and fastners, no turbo, no intake side stuff…) is in the $2200-2300 range, and there "stage 1" semi complete packages are in the $4200-6000 range.

The banks setup for $4600-6000 is starting to look not so bad…

To be honest, I've welded up custom turbo headers for local Honda guys even though I've never even worked on or been behind the wheel of a Honda, and they've all been more then willing to part with more then what most people here wince at for a pair of headers/manifolds…

It makes almost no sense to use a turbo to build a 400hp small block. Again, unless you can do it yourself and have the parts lying around, or you're building a purely low end, torque biased engine (like for a truck).

The most basic, reasonable turbo setup on a small block should be able to support 800hp without any plumbing changes, and you wouldn’t have to change much to get that setup into the 1200hp range (the biggest change would be the engine that you'd bolt it to, the turbo you'd use and the down pipe).

For example?

You could probably design a manifold that would work with both an f-body and full size truck assuming that you mount the turbo high enough and far enough back, but nothing else will interchange. Impalas/b-bodies need completely different plumbing everywhere, as do V8 converted S10's. I'm not sure about the G-bodies. 'vettes are completely different and their owners have a completely different mind set WRT to what they'll tolerate and pay for. Go with '70's and older and it gets much easier, but suddenly you've got competition and most people doing this kind of thing will pay for custom setups or won't pay anything and will just cobble something themselves. There does appear to be some overlap with what will work on the gen 3, LS* series engines (assorted cars, new trucks, vette…), but again, that does 3rd gen f-bodies no good whatsoever.

Save up your duckets or learn to do it yourself… Of course, it seems the way most 3rd gen owners are, they go with something more expensive once they have the kind of money it would take to do a turbo setup right on a 3rd gen. Which is why you mostly see either jy/home built setups or something like someone going out and getting guido all the parts and then paying him to weld up a "kit"

 

So when it is all said and done it is not unrealistic to have about $12k in the power alone, but at 800hp!

Then you add on the built drivetrain ($5000)

Brakes ($3000)

Wheels and tires ($2000-up)

Chassis stuff (???)

The flip side is even if the bill ran up to $40k (extremely high side) there wouldn't be a stock car up to $100k that could catch you.


All on a car I paid $1500 for

Oh well time to start saving tens and twenties:lala: :lala: :lala:

 

You can name a car that has more then 800hp for under $100K?

Of course, you'd still be driving a 3rd gen

 

All the better!

If I was into to this for how other people thought of me I would never have picked a car.

This car fits my boys in back comfortably, has a V8 and a stick, is not so rare as to be expensive to replace broken parts, but rare enough that when done right will stand out.

The truth is I was looking at '80s Porsches before and discovered that the entry fee to a DIY rebuild was $8k. Then I looked at a crate engiine for a small block and saw for about half I could have a brand new engine that put out way more power. The rest was just logical conclusions.

Now I just have to do it.

Jason

 

what are the stipulations here? I can name one, its a ford, and on nitrous. the guy would crap himself if he ever had close to $100k in his life.

ps: does Monty have $100k in his?