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New wheel bearings, new rotors. Castle nuts are hand tight, i have a feeling that if i tighten more the wheels turn harder. I get this much of play if i wiggle the tire at 12 and 6.
Correct tightening for wheel bearings is, while rotating the rotor, tighten the nut to about 15-20 in-lbs at the outer edge of the rotor required to turn it; loosen, re-tighten to about 15-20 in-lbs; tighten to next cotter pin line-up.
ANY and ALL play is unacceptable. Can't be bothered watching a video if it shows play.
Thanks for quick reply. I have no play without the wheel but with wheel i have extra leverage and get play on 6 and 12 o clock… I will try to tighten to next hole and see what happens.
[QUOTE]while rotating the rotor, tighten the nut to about 15-20 in-lbs at the outer edge of the rotor required to turn it; loosen, re-tighten to about 15-20 in-lbs; tighten to next cotter pin line-up.[/QUOTE]
There's more to it than just that. The bearings are supposed to have a significant amount of preload.
Correct tightening for wheel bearings is, while rotating the rotor, tighten the nut to about 15-20 in-lbs at the outer edge of the rotor required to turn it; loosen, re-tighten to about 15-20 in-lbs; tighten to next cotter pin line-up.
ANY and ALL play is unacceptable. Can't be bothered watching a video if it shows play.
I once over-tightened a front wheel bearing 40 years ago and ended up with a smoking front spindle. Lesson learned the hard way, nervous as hell concerning wheel bearings ever since. What to you mean by at the outer edge of the rotor? are you saying that some special torque tool is required to grab the rotor to perform the torque, or is this where your hand should be on the torque wrench handle, while applying torque so you have the proper moment?
It needs preload, same as any tapered roller in any application.
Not enough to kill it of course; just, "enough". I can definitely see how you could kill one by over-tightening; but it needs preload.
"Outer edge of rotor" = spin it by hand.
No, "zero play" is not the right answer for your situation, or anybody else doing a front wheel bearing on one of these cars or any other with a similar design, or any other tapered roller. It needs preload.
That's the first time I have heard there needs to be preload. Whether I read this from a manual back in the day, (70's) or word of mouth, but I've always preloaded the bearings with a wrench to ensure the bearings were seated, loosen them, then hand tight, (or a very light wrench torqueing), and back off to next hole. This will leave a small amount of play when cold which I have always assumed was to account for any parts expansion when hot which will tighten up the play.
Of course, that has always left me wondering how the carrier bearings of a differential can handle the amount of preload required during set up!
Guess I need to re-educate myself on this again...
OK, I did a quick search of "real" articles on tapered bearing theory and adjustments, not forums where misinformation is often seen. (Search terms: adjust tapered bearings"). Bottom line, it depends on the actual system that determines if there is a preload or not. Operator experience also comes into play when estimating final adjustment. The least amount of axial and radial play is desired at operating temperature.
It seems that the automotive wheel bearing application consensus is to use the first cotter key slot available when loosening from a "snug" torque. Now, the actual torque of "snug" is up for debate. That is where operator experience comes into play. I guess the only way to prove you have the proper cold adjustment is to check the preload at operating temperature to see if it's loose, zero or tight.
That still doesn't address the unique situation of differential carrier bearings. My guess there really isn't as much preload as one would expect. Tightening a spindle nut can produce a large amount of preload compared to just hammering in shims in a differential.
Buy a cheap Harbor freight dial indicator andMeasure how much hub play there is.
for iron Rotors/Hubs, set it 0.005-0.009in
you will need to try out a few castle nut positions to get it right.
Then recheck after a few thousand miles.
I don't think the GM manual calls for a toque spec, just a tolerance on throw out. They use to sell a tool that bolted to the spindle to measure this. But a $20 dial indicator works fine.
I personally set my aluminum hubs to 0.003in for Autocross, or 0.001in for road course work.
As aluminum expends more than iron as it heats up
0.009in is gonna be hard to just "feel"
You could wing it and set it to Zero lash.
and hope the new bearings break in that 5 thousandths or so on their own.
Not worth to risk it i guess. As i said before without the wheel on i cant feel any play in the rotor but with the wheel it moves as seen in the video.
That's probably because the wheel gives you more leverage.but it could be a old Ball-Joint getting loose as well.
Hard to say without measuring parts and eliminating potential problem spots.
Balljoints are all fine, i have the same play on both wheels. If i tighten more(i need a wrench cant do it by hand) the play is gone but the rotors get harder to turn i get about half a turn with a push.
I'm pretty sure the factory service manual calls out a torque value. they keep it real simple, which I suspect, is not the best way of doing this. What Sofa is saying makes sense, and I also like that idea of tightening the whole nut down, spinning the rotor at the edge, then back off nut (to compress some of the new grease that has likely been put in there) and start with the two times torque attempt as he said. I'll try to check the service manual next time I'm near it. The problem with torque values, is it can be effected by things like new grease, which makes this all less scientific and more experienced base. I rarely ever touch a wheel bearing like these, so don't have a whole lot of experience.
I see some potential problems with that video. 1st, he doesn't spin the rotor, he spins the mounted tire. the tire is a lot of rotational momentum, making it difficult to get a feel for how tight the bearing is. 2nd, he says there is not torque value specified. I'll bet there is, he just doesn't have a service manual for that rare thing he has, so he has to wing it. there is generally a torque value for just about anything important, and trust me, from prior mentioned experience, a wheel bearing is important to keeping your car pointed straight down the road. 3rd, look at that garage, does that look like an expert mechanic in action, or a guy trying to make money off youtube videos?
He said he is not an expert, but in general most of the mechanics say it has to have some play in 6 and 12 movement… I will leave it like it is and recheck after some driving.
Bit off subject, but anyone switch to these? I always found my ideal "preload" would put the castle nut blocking the hole/s. Not so much with this set-up.
Spinning the tire instead of the rotor is totally OK. Just gotta remember that it has a bigger diameter, i.e. more mechanical advantage, i.e. less rotating torque at the proper setting.
That sheet metal thing over the nut in 84's photo is factory. They typically don't survive very many R&Rs. Doesn't have any effect whatsoever on the matter at hand; the nut itself doesn't have the "castle" feature, but the retainer thing still has to have one of its crenelations align with a cotter pin hole. Not sure if you can buy em in the aftermarket anywhere but you might be able to.
Last edited by sofakingdom; 04-03-2022 at 06:35 PM.
If you're referring to my pic. I got those off a late model 3rd gen at the JY years ago. My 84 had the old school castle nuts. I haven't seen them on any other GM model from that era, but I don't look that close most times. Third gens couldn't of been the only ones to get em.
The nut under the stamped piece is your plain low profile type nut, kinda what you see used for jamb nuts.
Bit off subject, but anyone switch to these? I always found my ideal "preload" would put the castle nut blocking the hole/s. Not so much with this set-up.
Yep, my '92 came factory with them. Found some on the 'help' rack and used them on other cars. Much easier to set the bearing end play as it has a finer resolution.
I shoot for the lower end of the 1 - 5 thou end play.
No, they were on pretty much everything. A, B, F, G bodies, S trucks, etc. But once Skillet gets hold of em under the old shade tree, they don't last long.
I had those 2 piece castle nuts for a while and couldn't find a new set that fits these cars last year. I liked them and would have bought more if available. I even contacted the Dorman help desk and they didn't have them, but I'm pretty sure the last set I had was from them.
There are a bunch of things that move around in the suspenion on these cars. Strut shaft to strut body, control arm bushings, worn ball joints, and yes bearings. I'm just about at the point of giving up on taking all the slop out of the suspension.
Today I found slop in the spindle itself, dial indicator base on the strut body and plunger on the threaded portion of the spindle. I just got these spindles from a junkyard in December and ran 2 autocrosses with them.
03-29-2022, 08:58 AM
