Ok guys, its about time that I post this thread after owning my firebird for a year. This ongoing problem is actually why I joined the board in the first place, and now a year has gone by and I have yet to explain what is going on with my car. I am going to try to make this story short and include as much detail to help you guys help me. I found the car on Ebay in May of 08. It is an 1989 formula, 96,000 miles, LB9 engine automatic,t tops,new tires, great paint and interior, and no rust. It was local so I looked at it in person 3 times. I took it for a test drive with a friend that is a mechanic, he drove it about 5 miles and could tell it needed a tune up. but he could not find anything else mechanically wrong with the car. The seller wanted $4,200 firm to take it off his hands. After a week on ebay he relisted it for $3,800, then it dident sell again, after about 2 weeks i talked him down to $2,000 cash for it. He took it because he needed money badly and i walked off with his firebird (a 16 year old kid with his permit) June 10th of 08. Anyway, after signing over the title and all the legal stuff i drove it off his property and got it to my girl friends house, where it stalled and ran rough for a while. I took it to the local pontiac dealer to get "a check over". i explained to them that it ran rough and it idled bad. they found that cylinder 1 was not fireing because of a bad plug. i got the plug replaced along with a fuel filter, oil change, oil filter. they told me it desparatly needed a tune up. however i did not have the money to do it that fall.


The biggest problem i found early while owning the car is that when i cold start it, it idles at like 1500rpm, then if i shift into reverse from park it is fine. but if i shift into drive especially when its cold (engine not up to temp) it like launches foward and feels like rear end is trying to grab the road and the front lifts up. after it warms up that problem goes away. it does however shift from 1st to 4th perfect and smoothly.


The second major problem is that i noticed that at stop signs and red lights it will idle down to about 500-600rpm and it will stall after about 5 seconds. to cure this problem i just have to rest my foot on the gas to kinda keep it going.


Aside from those 2 problems that it ran ok but rough that summer/fall. for inspection i took it back to the pontiac dealer and all it needed was a new state sticker and idler arm. i still got an oil change and filter while it was in the shop. then i stopped driving it in late November because of the snow. i blew my heater core that december, replaced it myself for 40 bucks and 8 hours of my time. i took it out on completly dry days about 3 times that winter. then once i got my liscence in early march of 09 i started driving it daily to school and what not, still running bad and rough of corse, i put up with it until about june when i detected that it was really starting to missfire. i changed all the spark plugs (which totally needed to be changed and were actually rusting). it did run better but i saved money and took it to the dealer for a complete tune up. i got a premium set of spark plug wires, msd cap and rotor, fuel filter, oil change, oil filter, coolant flush, egr and iac service. after that they still noticed it wasent running right and they saw that the timing was set to 24* to compensate for a bad module, so they suggested i replace the ignition module. that was another 75 dollars. after the $534 dollar tune up at the deal i noticed it ran a hell of alot smoother, it idled better, however it still dident cure the 2 major problems i have had since i bought the car. then recently i broke a sway bar endlink, replaced both, but it did not stop the engine shaking (which started when i broke the endlink) i can feel it the most at stop signs and lights, the front end shakes like voilently. which is a realitivily a new problem that has arose in the past couple weeks. so now i sit here with a car that still has these 3 major problems(the 2 major ongoing problems are show above in separate paragraphs) this car is like an ongoing project that always needs attention haha, i love the thing i just want it running and driving the best that it can. Thanks guys for helping me out, its about time i actually posted a thread about this.

 

Check your motor mounts, then go to the DIYPROM section and read through the stickies and links.

The other option is to find someone in your area that has much tuning & mechanical experience with 3rd gens.

The dealer is unlikely to be your best or cheapest option.

 

I checked the mounts and they look fine. the motor doesn't shake when its in park. only in drive when i am on the road.

 

Lets start with the simple stuff. I would have expected the motor mounts as well. Maybe have a buddy put the car in drive while you watch the engine. Does it look like the motor is bouncing around in the engine bay when he puts it in gear? Make sure to pick a buddy you trust so he doesn't run over you.

Next I would check the trans mount, is it good?

How does the engine run while moving? Does it feel smooth and strong?

If it doesn't work quite right, next I would check fuel pressure in gear and in park.

Where in NE PA do you live? I will be in the Wilkes Barre area in early September to visit my parents. If you want you can swing by and I'll take a look. I've been through a lot of goofy problems with these cars.

 

I would try another ECU, don't buy one, just try one out, find a buddy with one or someone local to you. I too would check your fuel pressure, that may have something to do with the idling and dying after 5 seconds.

 

The engine runs a hell of a lot better once i got the tune up. but doing to full tune up still has not fixed the 2 major problems i am having with the car. i live in hawley pa, near honesdale. about an hour away from the wilkes-barre/scranton area. as for trying a new ecu, i can probably only get my hands on an ecu out of an 88 trans am with an LB9/auto

 

I would also check the transmission mount and the mounting for the torque-arm. It usually takes more than just looking at them to check them for slop.

 

the transmission mount seams solid. idk how to check the torque arm.

 

I talked to a mechanic and he is about 99% sure its either a vacuum leak or a torque converter problem. he said the torque converter being cold locks up and tries to take off. and he said the torque converter hangs on to the motor too much when i am in drive and stop at stop signs/lights causing it to idle at about 500-600rpm. he also said it is about a grand to fix. i dont know guys what do you think about this?

 

If the TCC was locking it would kill the engine.
Look for another mechanic.

 

Agreed, seriously doubt its the torque converter. The knowledge here is way better than your average backyard mechanic.

 

yeah thats why i love this site. i am going to check the CTS and replace it, then i will OHM the injectors tomorrow to see what is going on. another user suggested to me that it is an ignition coil. does that seam a valid player in my problems?

 

Sup sully its me. if your mechanic thinks its the torque converter you can do it your self you dont need to spend a grand. its easy to replace less time then the heater core. but if he also said vaccum leak, maybe its you Tcc switch under the dash, its vacuum controlled and connects to the tranny. try taking off the under dash (by your feet) and checking by the brake pedal, theres two switches there, (ones a brake light switch) the other is the clutch converter/ cruise control switch) the lock up could be locking up sooner due to a malfuction switch. its used to help bypass the cruise control or lockup in the converter when the brakes are applied, i had to replace mine, easy as pie. it has a vacuum hose connect to it. also you should vacuum test your lines. theres a check valve (not brake booster valve) but another one, its a three way by the wipper moter, its the one inline for the vacuum rez (inside bumper drivers side) and the cruise control. you can actually plug that to see if it stalls, you also should set the idle speed, 1500 is normal in cold start but stalling at a stop is usually unstable idle. perhaps the THrottle body is too closed, not enough air to idle, theres a long process to set the idle if you need my to explain i will but i warned you it takes 10 mins to perform and a whole lot of typing

 

haha i have a whole list of things i need check when i get time to look at my car tomorrow. i might as well print out this thread lol. for just a little more information that i might of missed, i have 3 different problems:



1st it is when i cold start the car. it starts up and idles fine at about 1500 then backs down to about 1100 after 30 seconds. sounds completely fine. if i put it directly into reverse it is fine and shifts smooth. if i back up then put in into drive the rear wheels try to grab the ground for about 3 seconds lurching the car forward for a second. meanwhile the car is running at like 1100rpm and drops down to like 600rpm during the switch from reverse to drive. however that only happens when its complety cold and does not happen when its warm.

the 2nd problem is when i stop at stop signs and lights or when i go to park the car it idles down to 500-600rpm for about 5 seconds. and if i dont hit the gas just a little bit to keep it going at like 700rpm or more then it will stall. however if i am not stopped the car runs fine and shifts fine from 1st to 4th and downshifts fine.


My third problem is that sometimes the motor will shake violently. i checked all of the mounts and they look solid, it started happeneing when i broke an swaybar endlink. however it hasent stopped when i replaced both of them. when its shaking the rpm's are steady.

 

the 1st problem you have with the "lurching" or launch when put into drive is due to three things. (bad torque arm bushing, seized rear brakes, and sometimes the crush sleeve in the rear diff get worn out from burn outs causing sloppy reverse to drive shifts. My car does exactly what said

[quote] if i back up then put in into drive the rear wheels try to grab the ground for about 3 seconds lurching the car forward for a second. meanwhile the car is running at like 1100rpm and drops down to like 600rpm during the switch from reverse to drive.[/qoute]

i try tapping the gas pedal kinda helps bring the rpms down. but i suspect it could be seized brake calipers not holding the wheels in place in the rear.

the torque arm bushing is by the transmission, theres also the tranny bushing to look at, and when i replaced the worn out bushing on the sway bar and torque arm bushing, it helpd a lot with the "lurching".

Also u said your engine shakes violently? that could be low lubricant in the A/c compressor and could be seizing up on you. Happend to me bad (whole engine was jumping up and down. i cut the belt and it ran again. i tried turning the ac compressor pulley and it was seized. been 4 years since and still havnt replaced the belt but i did gain some Horse power because of the less drag.

and your stalling is because your idle needs to be adjusted. to adjust the idle,,do the following. ground the A and b diagnostic link then turn the key to on NOT start. wait thirty seconds, then unplug the Idle control valve. next remove the diagnostic A B gound, and then un plug the computer tan wire wire under the hood (same wire that you unplug for timing.) next start up the car with the tan wire still unplugg, and have somebody shift into drive while holding the brakes while you adjust the idle on the throttle body to 450rpm. then shift to park, turn off car. and (i would at this point readjust the TPS to .555volts with the key in the on position and i would time the dizzy to *6 BTDC.) reconnect the tan wire, and the Idle air control valve -IACV- and start the car. you shouldnt be stalling after that. if you do then try to check the idle again, because of a tps adjustment made. that should work out for ya.

 

[quote=transam85dudeman;4259330]the 1st problem you have with the "lurching" or launch when put into drive is due to three things. (bad torque arm bushing, seized rear brakes, and sometimes the crush sleeve in the rear diff get worn out from burn outs causing sloppy reverse to drive shifts. My car does exactly what said


wow, transam85dudeman, your full of great information. it was hardcore raining with alot of thunderstorms, so i will take a look at the car after work. i have to print out the responses on this thread. all i really have to say is that the idle is fine in park its just gets down to 500rpm in drive. the "lurching" only happens when its cold. like if it sits over night and it only does it once. once the car heats up a little it dosent do it what so ever.

 

Wow what long day i had today. my bird gave me a real big scare today. i took my firebird out for the first time in about 2 weeks. i dident put gas in it since the 1st of augest. the guage read 1/4 of a tank. so i thought i was golden for a little while. i drove about 10 miles and my car died out in the middle of no where. with the guage still reading 1/4 so i was thinking i had major problems. my friend had to rescue me with a gallon of gas so i can get to the gas station. what was really funny was that i put $20 dollars of gas into it and it ran fine. So the moral of my short story is to never trust a 20 year old gas guage. After this, i realized that my gas cap hisses all the time. should it be doing this? its an aftermarket locking cap.

 

Ive actually used to use an aftemarket gas cap but i noticed that gas was leaking out during the turns and stuff. i switched back to regular cap. and in all GM's, its best not to go below the 1/4 tank mark. Your charcol canister is suppose to help the pressure of the fumes, could be a clogged checkvalve on the evap system. try checking the solenoid and vacuum test the check valve, canister, and hoses that lead to the throttle body. Its an emission control problem. if you want. try talking to a smog check place and ask if they can test your gas cap and evap system, they test mine everytime for smog. but instead of the whole smog check process they might do it for like 10 bucks. they attach a nitrogen compressor to your gas tank opening and test for leaks or if the evap system is working. if you never changed the fuel pump, then maybe the fuel arm is probably hung up on somthing or the device is shot. but if you fill up the tank and it works then probably just the pickup filter isnt getting to the bottom of the tank to pickup gas. peace.

 

yeah, i noticed since that day my car has been running crazyyyy rich which is weird because it was running a little on the lean side for a while according to the plugs before i changed them last month. The SES code is ALWAYS on now. the motor still shakes, maybe fouled plug from being so rich. the plugs are a month old with 200 miles on them. the exhaust is quiter, i dont know about the condition of my cat. but that wouldent explain the missfire. it now smokes all the time. it smells like unburt fuel and exhaust. i cant even drive with the windows down. i have 6*btdc timing and i am using 93 octane gas. i dont get any power, especially on hills. it boggs down often only in closed loop. if i leave fast from a stop sign i leave a ton of smoke. i'm thinking O2 sensor? where exactly do i run the jumper wire for the diagnostic test so i can see if its throwing trouble codes?

 

ok i ran the car for codes and it was not throwing a single one. the car does not smoke, or smell rich when i cold start it. it starts to smell very very rich and smoke blue smoke every where after it has been running for 3 minutes. it smokes at idle and when i give it gas and it backfires when the rpm's drop. it went through 2 quarts of oil in 200 miles or about a month. i cant rev the car past 3 grand because it bogs down because its smoking so much. its not really driveable, and i need it to get to and from school that starts wendsday. any ideas?

 

I am thinking a clogged cat. I am going to disconnect it at the y-pipe tomorrow and check it out. After looking through many threads. I narrowed it down to a clogged cat. The exhaust sounds quiter, it smokes, doesent like to be reved high. loss of power, especially on hills. I am thinking that the exhaust is smelling rich because it might be messing up my o2 sensor which would change the mixture.

 

blue smoke and serious oil consumption is bad..... REAL bad. sounds like a catastrophic ring failure.... have your engine compression tested, something is not right at all inside it.

 

yeah that's what i am afraid of, i went through another quart in about 100 miles. and its smoking very badly and it also developed a misfire. it cant rev high. it makes no power. the exhaust is quieter. when parked overnight on asphalt, i don't see any oil on the pavement. it seams like someone put synthetic in it or something. i believe the new plugs are fouled. what should the compression be in psi for each cylinder?


i will write back tomorrow when i check out the condition of the cat

 

anything higher than 150PSI is good if i remember correctly. could also be really bad or missing valve stem seals, (doubtful) or like i said busted up rings... compression test will tell us if your compression rings are ok, but not if the wiper rings are good, but, its a step

 

ok i preformed the compression test. i live at an elevation of 900 feet above sea level. this is what i came up with, the results are the closest acording to the needle.

#1: 151 psi
#2: 171 psi
#3: 166 psi
#4: 176 psi
#5: 158 psi
#6: 170 psi
#7: 161 psi
#8: 158 psi

thats averaging 163 psi per cylinder. isent that too high?

 

no, thats good

 

alright. i pulled a couple plugs today and they were fuel fouled. the tips were complely dark black, wet, and they reeked of fuel. which goes back to that maybe i am running way to rich, and maybe its not oil. its still not throwing any codes.

 

ok i warmed it up. i got no codes when i unplugged the o2 sensor and it dident throw a code when i pluged it back it. after i disconnected the MAF and ran it for a few minutes and ran it for codes i got 21, and a 3- something. it blinked 3 times then nothing, 3 times then nothing, 3 times then nothing before it went back to the regular 12 code. it looks like it should be 30? but code 30 does not exist. i called my local napa and he told me 62 bucks for a new tps. would the TPS make my car run rich and smoke? i dont think so

 

nah, it cant be the tps. the car would run on a default map if the tps was disconnected or bad. if its crazy rich and eating oil, i suspect it is has to do with something with the valves. have you checked your lash on the valves?

*piston rings good
*compression good

if it were a clogged exhaust cat i dont think it would burn the oil. but if you did want to remove the cat, make sure you plug the exhaust coming from the y pipes so cold air doesnt go back in the y pipes through the exhaust manifolds and warp the valves.

 

yeah, its actually not burning oil, it was just low and it freaked me out and i thought the smoke was oil burning smoke. the car does not smoke at start up. but i checked 4 different plugs and they were all fuel fouled, black and wet and reeked of fuel. the exhaust smells like gas so much that i cant drive with the windows down. i played around with the tps and disconnected/plugged it back in and the code 21 went away. it did pull up a code 33 when i plugged the maf back in. i noticed it smokes more when i run with out the maf plugged in. the wire in the maf is not glowing red or anything. would a bad maf cause a rich condition?

 

any one have any advice?

 

I have a suggestion for you to check. Pull all the connectors off your injectors and check their resistance they should be between 16 to 17 ohms. Do it when its cold then again when its hot sometimes the injectors die when they get warmed up. If it has the injectors I think it has from factory they are junk. I worked at a dealer and found 6 injectors bad on a corvette and my car had 3 bad. They are known to be crappy injectors. If you need any dont go to autozone and buy just the one or 2 if you need them. Fuel injector connection sells a whole set for about 20. Again thats only if you need them which i wont be surprised if you do.

 

a bad MAF CAN cause a rich condition, unplug the MAF clean the contacts and make sure that the plug is completely seated and see if you still E33 set. also pull the vacuum line off of the the fuel pressure regulator and see if it leaks fuel, if so you have a ripped FPR diaphram and need a new one. if not i would suspect your coolant temperature sensor.

 

the vac line to the fuel pressure regulator is dry. i cleaned the MAF and its still throwing a code 33. i can get a set of injectors for 20 bucks? or is that 200?

 

id check the MAF relay and burn off relay prior to going any further with the MAF, if those test good, then id get a new MAF for it

 

my bad i meant 200

 

how do i check the relay's, test light, meter? i know they are to the right of the brake booster

 

Did you check the resistance of them injectors yet. I would do that first before you start throwing money at it just to be sure. 16-17 ohms no higher no lesser

 

my ohm meter shows that the resistance is 0 ohms on all the injectors. which is weird, i tried it with other things and the meter is working perfect. i have a scale of 100, 1000 or 10,000 on the meter. i have to do it with the car completly off right?

 

you have to unplug the connector off the injectors. you can take them off one by one so u don't mess up the order or you can take them all off to be able to do it quicker. make sure you're touching the injector terminals and the probes arent touching each other or you will get 0 ohms. I suggest you get and injector pigtail, I think autozone sells them, and take of the metal clip that locks it on and use that to check them so you know ur getting a good connection or if you have an old computer harness you don't use cut it off there. You will only need one.

 

my car devloped a new problem. one of the drum brakes in the back started to squeek. it is unbearable. it stops when i hit the brakes. i have pleanty of brake fluid. whats going on?

 

the shoe's probably dragging, pull the drum at take a look inside

 

yeah, i still have this running rich problem. now the car cant rev high or low. it hates going under 800rpm and it hates going higher then 2500rpm. it is pouring black smoke out the exhuast. it smokes all the time when fully warm. and it will alittle at warm up, but it will never smoke at startup. i fouled a new set of plugs in about 350 miles. the plugs were completely black and wet with fuel. and i am averaging 8-9mpg, when i was averaging 14-15 before this problem started. the only code i am throwing is number 33- bad MAF. i cant ohm my injectors because my meter reads 0 ohms when i test them. I'm not touching the negative and positive on the injector. and it does this to every injector. idk why it would be fouling all the 8 plugs. unless all my injectors are bad. i'm about to bring it up to the dealer for the 4th time this year. they told me a new MAF is $265. but i dont want to buy it and have it not solve the problem.

 

code 33 = maf, test the maf circuits, get a test light and probe around, plenty of information on how to do it, if the circuit is fine, then get a new one MAF directly affects fuel trims and mixtures.

 

ok, i have some new updates. i replaced the maf relay and the code went away immediatly, but it dident solve the problem at all. i took it up to the Pontiac, chevy, buick, gmc dealer today that i usually take it to, i told them about the smoke/bad running issue and the issue with the maf, and the squeeling from the rear that stops when i hit the brake. it spent the day in the shop. and my mechanic told me that "it runs like rough, smokes, has a hard time in open loop", but he told me once he got it into closed loop, it ran strong, and the smoke cleared. he told me, CTS, MAF, O2 sensor, TPS were all fine in closed loop. the timing is still set to 6*btdc, he did notice that the car did reek of stale gas. he also recommended to experiment with different gas grades. i always use 93 premium. he told me to try 87 regular and if it pings too much try 89 or 91. he said its something that the computer dosent motior that is causing the problem. as for the squeek, he cleaned out the brake dust, test drove it, and after that he determined that the right side axle is getting tight and the bearings were wearing out. he checked the fluid in the diff. and he said it was normal but added some 90weight oil to it. as of today i still dont know were i stand on the running pretty poorly problem.