will 1st gen 12 bolt work on 3rd gen without much mods?
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Joined: Jul 1999
Posts: 17,271
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From: 51°N 114°W, 3500'
Car: 87 IROC L98
Engine: 588 Alcohol BBC
Transmission: Powerglide
Axle/Gears: Ford 9"/31 spline spool/4.86
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Yes and no. It's close enough to the same width that it will fit fine however a first gen diff used leaf springs. Third gen is coil springs with a torque arm. You can convert the spring, shock and lower control arm mounts over but there's no way to attach a torque arm onto a factory 12 bolt diff. You could convert the rear suspension to ladder bars or 4-link but then that doesn't become a "little or no mods"
Yes and no. It's close enough to the same width that it will fit fine however a first gen diff used leaf springs. Third gen is coil springs with a torque arm. You can convert the spring, shock and lower control arm mounts over but there's no way to attach a torque arm onto a factory 12 bolt diff. You could convert the rear suspension to ladder bars or 4-link but then that doesn't become a "little or no mods"
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Joined: Jul 1999
Posts: 17,271
Likes: 171
From: 51°N 114°W, 3500'
Car: 87 IROC L98
Engine: 588 Alcohol BBC
Transmission: Powerglide
Axle/Gears: Ford 9"/31 spline spool/4.86
You need to do the same thing with the 9" however a torque arm mount bracket can be made or purchased from Currie or Moser. It can be welded to the steel housing. The 12 bolt has a cast iron housing. The hardest thing is to find a 9" diff narrow enough to fit under the third gen.
You can buy a complete aftermarket 12 bolt or 9" for around $2000. It will be a complete bolt-in and use all the third gen suspension parts.
Why do you need to change the diff? I ran a beefed up 10 bolt for a few years and only switched to a 9" when I added a transbrake to the tranny.
You can buy a complete aftermarket 12 bolt or 9" for around $2000. It will be a complete bolt-in and use all the third gen suspension parts.
Why do you need to change the diff? I ran a beefed up 10 bolt for a few years and only switched to a 9" when I added a transbrake to the tranny.
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Joined: Jul 1999
Posts: 17,271
Likes: 171
From: 51°N 114°W, 3500'
Car: 87 IROC L98
Engine: 588 Alcohol BBC
Transmission: Powerglide
Axle/Gears: Ford 9"/31 spline spool/4.86
If you have a 700hp engine, why are you even considering a junkyard diff that won't fit without a lot of modifications?
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Supreme Member
Joined: Jul 1999
Posts: 18,457
Likes: 16
From: Loveland, OH, US
Car: 4
Engine: 6
Transmission: 5
There is no other stock rear that will bolt into these cars.
If you want a 12-bolt, a few companies (Moser, Currie, KTRE, maybe Strange) make their own 12-bolt housings specifically for these cars; then you can use any 12-bolt carrier or gears you want.
But you won't find one laying around that will just go in with little mods; there's no provision for the torque arm in the other cars that came with 12-bolts. The suspension is completely different.
If you want a 12-bolt, a few companies (Moser, Currie, KTRE, maybe Strange) make their own 12-bolt housings specifically for these cars; then you can use any 12-bolt carrier or gears you want.
But you won't find one laying around that will just go in with little mods; there's no provision for the torque arm in the other cars that came with 12-bolts. The suspension is completely different.
USGear/Strang is the producer of the torque arm style center section, KTRE was the biggest purchaser of the diff and Moser and Currie are on the back burner.
I have installed quite a few of the Strange units, but I would go through it before the actual install (I have found some discrepencies). But its a solid unit after you take care of some little things!
I have installed quite a few of the Strange units, but I would go through it before the actual install (I have found some discrepencies). But its a solid unit after you take care of some little things!
rear end
I am fixing to do the same thing. switch them out. I will probably use a 4th gen rear end though since they are a little more beefed up. the 98+s up camaro ss/trans ams have 31 spline axles i think...what would these hold to and what could do to make them last ?
I dont' have 2000 laying around or i would buy a rear end
I dont' have 2000 laying around or i would buy a rear end
Its a 7.5", four-cylinder truck differential, that is under rated in your car when, your car is in stock form.
In short, it is way too small of a device (ring gear diameter) to really handle the power that we can create.
In short, it is way too small of a device (ring gear diameter) to really handle the power that we can create.
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Joined: Jul 1999
Posts: 17,271
Likes: 171
From: 51°N 114°W, 3500'
Car: 87 IROC L98
Engine: 588 Alcohol BBC
Transmission: Powerglide
Axle/Gears: Ford 9"/31 spline spool/4.86
Fourth gen diffs are not that much better. In the late 80's GM went from 7 1/2" ring gears to 7 5/8" ring gears. They all fit the same carrier and are still classified as 7.5" 10 bolts. In 1990 they upgraded from 26 spline to 28 spline. When the fourth gens came out in 1993 the diff was 2" wider on each side.
Fourth gen diff = 7.625" ring gear, 28 spline axles (weak factory ones), longer axles than a third gen (more prone to twisting). As much as the 10 bolt can be beefed up the weak link is still the tiny ring and pinion. I ran a beefed up 10 bolt for a year and ran 11.2's at 121 mph with no problems except for blowing up 2 engines in the process. After that year I added a transbrake and went right to a 9" since I didn't think the 10 bolt could take more than one hit off the transbrake.
Factory 12 bolt diffs are 30 spline. Factory 9" diffs are 28 or 31 spline. I run 31 spline Strange axles.
The $2000 package is for a complete diff. You can save money by just ordering the housing with axles then add in your own center section with carrier and gears. You can pick up a 9" housing with axles for about $900. Add the center section that can be picked up locally or at a swap meet and it's ready to go. Just make sure you order the axles with the spline count of the carrier you want to use. Going to 35 or 40 spline axles means an expensive carrier.
Fourth gen diff = 7.625" ring gear, 28 spline axles (weak factory ones), longer axles than a third gen (more prone to twisting). As much as the 10 bolt can be beefed up the weak link is still the tiny ring and pinion. I ran a beefed up 10 bolt for a year and ran 11.2's at 121 mph with no problems except for blowing up 2 engines in the process. After that year I added a transbrake and went right to a 9" since I didn't think the 10 bolt could take more than one hit off the transbrake.
Factory 12 bolt diffs are 30 spline. Factory 9" diffs are 28 or 31 spline. I run 31 spline Strange axles.
The $2000 package is for a complete diff. You can save money by just ordering the housing with axles then add in your own center section with carrier and gears. You can pick up a 9" housing with axles for about $900. Add the center section that can be picked up locally or at a swap meet and it's ready to go. Just make sure you order the axles with the spline count of the carrier you want to use. Going to 35 or 40 spline axles means an expensive carrier.
Originally posted by Stephen 87 IROC
Fourth gen diff = 7.625" ring gear, 28 spline axles (weak factory ones), longer axles than a third gen (more prone to twisting). As much as the 10 bolt can be beefed up the weak link is still the tiny ring and pinion. I ran a beefed up 10 bolt for a year and ran 11.2's at 121 mph with no problems except for blowing up 2 engines in the process. After that year I added a transbrake and went right to a 9" since I didn't think the 10 bolt could take more than one hit off the transbrake.
Fourth gen diff = 7.625" ring gear, 28 spline axles (weak factory ones), longer axles than a third gen (more prone to twisting). As much as the 10 bolt can be beefed up the weak link is still the tiny ring and pinion. I ran a beefed up 10 bolt for a year and ran 11.2's at 121 mph with no problems except for blowing up 2 engines in the process. After that year I added a transbrake and went right to a 9" since I didn't think the 10 bolt could take more than one hit off the transbrake.
All the accounts I've heard, you need a lot more than just a good ring and pinion. All hearsay, of course, as I've never pounded on a modified 10 bolt.
Back to the point, you have pounded on one, and could you divulge the recipe for your specific 10 bolt?
P.S., just checked out your website, nice car. I'm partial to the rough and tumble, thump the pretty-boy look myself. I'm not too sure about a car that runs high 10's with lexan t-tops, a 460 cubes, plexiglas windows, and a transbrake, tho... No disrespect intended (your car is, after all, a whole lot faster than mine), but do you think that there's a little potential left in your setup?
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Joined: Jul 1999
Posts: 17,271
Likes: 171
From: 51°N 114°W, 3500'
Car: 87 IROC L98
Engine: 588 Alcohol BBC
Transmission: Powerglide
Axle/Gears: Ford 9"/31 spline spool/4.86
Originally posted by NTChrist
Stephen: So, would it be logical to assume that with an aftermarket ring and pinion, (from a good name) and a few misc details like a stud girdle, that a 10 bolt could withstand a litte hp?
The best thing would be to find some pro gears but since the 7.5" isn't a performance diff I doubt they make pro gears for the 7.5", Mine were Motive gears.
Back to the point, you have pounded on one, and could you divulge the recipe for your specific 10 bolt?
http://www.ws6transam.org/10bolt.html
P.S., just checked out your website, nice car. I'm partial to the rough and tumble, thump the pretty-boy look myself. I'm not too sure about a car that runs high 10's with lexan t-tops, a 460 cubes, plexiglas windows, and a transbrake, tho... No disrespect intended (your car is, after all, a whole lot faster than mine), but do you think that there's a little potential left in your setup?
Fancy paint and lots of chrome doesn't make it go any faster.
I've never had any problems with the T-tops and many cars quicker than 11.00 have plexiglass or Lexan windows with transbrakes.
There's isn't much left in the car to go quicker without spending a lot more money. I've already invested in a TH400 transbrake so upgrading to a powerglide tranny with transbrake is a huge cost. I'm trying to get the car down to around 2800 pounds, race ready but trying to remove 400 more pounds isn't easy. Aluminum heads, fiberglass door and fenders would help but again it's the cost factor. I could backhalf the car and tub it out for larger tires but again it's the cost factor.
It all boils down to money. If I want to go much faster the easiest way would be to drop in a 540 engine that has to run on alcohol.
With the few changes I'll do over the winter I'm hoping for a 10 second pass next year at altitude. Going to a lower elevation track shouldn't be a problem doing it. I could have had a 10 second pass in Yakima if I didn't float the valves.
Just remember that building a fast car isn't just about the engine. 500+ hp won't run 12's if the power doesn't get to the ground or the rest of the driveline breaks every time it runs. Everyone see magazine articles about "pro street" type of cars but don't realize that many of these cars would never go on a drag strip or that it costs so much to run and maintain them that they'll never be considered daily drivers.
Bracket racing is about 80% of all racing. Speed means nothing in a bracket race. Build a car that runs consistant and regardless of the speed, it will be hard to beat. Build what you can afford and upgrade to something stronger or better if parts start to fail.
Stephen: So, would it be logical to assume that with an aftermarket ring and pinion, (from a good name) and a few misc details like a stud girdle, that a 10 bolt could withstand a litte hp?
The best thing would be to find some pro gears but since the 7.5" isn't a performance diff I doubt they make pro gears for the 7.5", Mine were Motive gears.
Back to the point, you have pounded on one, and could you divulge the recipe for your specific 10 bolt?
http://www.ws6transam.org/10bolt.html
P.S., just checked out your website, nice car. I'm partial to the rough and tumble, thump the pretty-boy look myself. I'm not too sure about a car that runs high 10's with lexan t-tops, a 460 cubes, plexiglas windows, and a transbrake, tho... No disrespect intended (your car is, after all, a whole lot faster than mine), but do you think that there's a little potential left in your setup?
Fancy paint and lots of chrome doesn't make it go any faster.
I've never had any problems with the T-tops and many cars quicker than 11.00 have plexiglass or Lexan windows with transbrakes.
There's isn't much left in the car to go quicker without spending a lot more money. I've already invested in a TH400 transbrake so upgrading to a powerglide tranny with transbrake is a huge cost. I'm trying to get the car down to around 2800 pounds, race ready but trying to remove 400 more pounds isn't easy. Aluminum heads, fiberglass door and fenders would help but again it's the cost factor. I could backhalf the car and tub it out for larger tires but again it's the cost factor.
It all boils down to money. If I want to go much faster the easiest way would be to drop in a 540 engine that has to run on alcohol.
With the few changes I'll do over the winter I'm hoping for a 10 second pass next year at altitude. Going to a lower elevation track shouldn't be a problem doing it. I could have had a 10 second pass in Yakima if I didn't float the valves.
Just remember that building a fast car isn't just about the engine. 500+ hp won't run 12's if the power doesn't get to the ground or the rest of the driveline breaks every time it runs. Everyone see magazine articles about "pro street" type of cars but don't realize that many of these cars would never go on a drag strip or that it costs so much to run and maintain them that they'll never be considered daily drivers.
Bracket racing is about 80% of all racing. Speed means nothing in a bracket race. Build a car that runs consistant and regardless of the speed, it will be hard to beat. Build what you can afford and upgrade to something stronger or better if parts start to fail.
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