TennesseeIroc-Z

iTrader: (7)

Well, I've made a couple of posts, gotten some good suggestions, but am at my wits end now.
Bought this car a couple weeks ago, the slave cylinder was bad (leaked fluid from inside rubber boot).
Replaced slave cylinder, but couldn't get enough pedal to engage clutch. Asked some questions, searched TGO, and noticed that my pedal had a lot of slop in it. Bought a new clutch master cylinder (AC Delco metal unit), new pedal bushings, and a new slave cylinder (Wagner unit instead of 1 st Dorman auto-suck part).
It's better, but still not enough pedal. I can start the car in gear, and the clutch isn't totally letting go, tryn to pull the car with the pedal down. I can't get the car in any gear while running.
I actually took the car for a spin, but only could match shift gears up, no down gears. To get into 1 st I had to stop, turn off car, put in gear, and start up.
I assembled the whole system outside the car and bench bled it, 99% sure that there is no air in the line.
So it's obvious I am going to have to pull the tranny, but I guess my question is what could cause this? What should I be looking for? The shift fork looks ok, the lil fork-ball is tight, I'll of course check these items out better when i take out the trans, but what else might cause these symptoms?
I did notice a slight "chatter" in the clutch what lil bit I did test drive. Could a worn pressure plate cause this?
Replacing the hydraulics DID help a bit, but just not quite enough.
Any advice?

W.E.G.

So, if I'm understanding your post, you are saying you have a "fails to release" issue?

If so, here's the troubleshoot:

W.E.G.

...also from the manual:

85 ZXX

iTrader: (1)

I bought a car that was sitting for along time and the clutch disc was stuck either to the flywheel or the pressure plate. It finally came loose with some light tapping on the pressure plate housing while rotating the flywheel and another person working the clutch n and out.

The throwout bearing may have gone out on yours.

TennesseeIroc-Z

iTrader: (7)

Thanks for the info. This helps me considerably. Will check my slave cylinder runout before taking out tranny.
So much for an easy fix, eh?

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

Which way did you put it together?

TennesseeIroc-Z

iTrader: (7)

Yea, see, that's just my problem. The story goes, guy owned the car for 10+ years, bought a gm performance crate 350 330 hp engine, drove it for 3-4 years, oil pump starting getting weak on idle and developed a couple leaks, so he pulled the motor, replaced the oil pump, camshaft, etc, and over a period of 2 years in military just kinda lost interest.
I made an offer on the car if he completed reassembly, he did about 85% reassembly, got the car running again, broke in the cam, etc, but ran outa time before re deployment to get it driving.
We made a new deal, I took my trailer and brought her home. While buttoning up a few undercar things like header collectors, crossmember and tranny mount, the slave cyl had been busted.
Now here I am.
I'm hoping its something simple like your picture, or clutch plate in backwards, or maybe a "shim" missing from behind flywheel.
The guy seems pretty good, don't think he took me on the deal, he's been in touch throughout as much as possible but he is in the middle of Afghanistan now so correspondence is slow.
I'm thinking he might've gotten in a hurry on reassembly and made a boo boo somewhere.
All hydraulics are new and properly bled, clutch pedal has new bushings installed. Next step is trans removal for a close inspection of clutch assembly, fork ball, clutch arm, throughout, etc etc.
If I stick a clutch lineup tool inside the throw out bearing in the clutch, can I still engage the clutch through the pedals with the trans out? For inspection purposes?
Thanks all for advice.
Kinda muffed at this point.

W.E.G.

OK, so you want to pull the trans from the clutch assembly and bell housing to do an inspection?

In order to inspect anything related to the clutch, woudn't clutch housing (a.k.a. "bell housing") would have to come off to do this inspection?

Doesn't the slave cylinder attach to the clutch housing?

At that point, the slave cylinder is disengaged from the fork, and you won't have any connection to the pressure plate via the pedal.

By the time you've done all the work to remove trans, how much more work is it really to remove the bell housing?

Once the bell housing is removed, you should be pretty much where you need to be as far as making a call about the condition of the components.

W.E.G.

Frankly, my vote is for one of two things installed BACKWARDS.

Either the throwout bearing or the clutch disk (a.k.a. "driven plate?).

So, you're going to be taking the whole clutch apart anyway.

W.E.G.

One last thing that's not likely your situation, but worth knowing and/or thinking about in the context of the possibility that the slave cylinder is simply not engaged correctly to the fork.

From the manual:
While this "shipping strap" may be just a convenience for speedier installations, it does suggest that there might be a "tricky" element to getting the slave-cylinder piston and the fork lined up just so.

TennesseeIroc-Z

iTrader: (7)

Well yes of course I will probably pull the bell housing, to do the inspection. But as some of the others have stated, its almost so close to clutch engagement that it might be possible that once I do pull the housing I might not actually be able to see the problem, therefore I wanted to push the pedal and visually verify what the heck is going on in there.
My biggest concern is that I remove this, only to really find nothing wrong, reinstall, and the prob remains...
Won't know until disassembly this weekend.

W.E.G.

OK, I'm not pretending to be any sort of clutch expert.

But, tell me how you would use the clutch pedal to make the pressure plate move if the slave cylinder is is unbolted from the bell housing, or if the bell housing and slave cylinder are unbolted from the block?

Either I'm not understanding something very fundamental, or we're having one of those "failure to communicate."

I'm serious when I say my bet is on the throwout bearing or the friction disk assembly being installed backwards. I don't see how you could otherwise get so close to it working, yet still be insufficient pedal.

It can't be a worn out friction disk, because that would be causing the opposite problem of plenty of pedal, but inadequate engagement.

There just aren't that many parts you can futz with in a clutch. Yeah, its a big PITA to get everything jacked up in suburban driveway, and free the various parts that are in the way, and then support all those same parts so you don't booger them while you work on the other parts.

Think the process through real good before you get too far into it. All four wheels off the ground, and the drivetrain taken apart is not the best time to find out you should have freed the motor mounts and/or the exhaust system first. Not saying that will happen on this job, but always in the back of your mind when you're out in the driveway, and you go this deep in.

TennesseeIroc-Z

iTrader: (7)

Unbolt the trans from bell housing, stick my lil fat head in there with my mark1 eyeball tool looking through the trans hole, have my wife push the pedal.
Basically only removing the trans and leaving the bell housing on to inspect, then removing the bell/slave/ starter to do further inspection.
One of those miscommunicaty thingys you were referring too I believe we were having.
Thanks for the help,

TennesseeIroc-Z

iTrader: (7)

Unbolt the trans from bell housing, stick my lil fat head in there with my mark1 eyeball tool looking through the trans hole, have my wife push the pedal.
Basically only removing the trans and leaving the bell housing on to inspect, then removing the bell/slave/ starter to do further inspection.
One of those miscommunicaty thingys you were referring too I believe we were having.
Thanks for the help,

W.E.G.

Well, let us know what ye olde MkI peeper can see looking down the tookas-hole of the clutch housing.

You *might* be able to identify an inverted throwout bearing from that vantage. If you can tell what side of the clutch disk is facing, you should give up Camaros and go to work for one of those No Such Agency groups.

Hope Saturday brings favorable weather. Looking forward to your report.

TennesseeIroc-Z

iTrader: (7)

Unbolt the trans from bell housing, stick my lil fat head in there with my mark1 eyeball tool looking through the trans hole, have my wife push the pedal.
Basically only removing the trans and leaving the bell housing on to inspect, then removing the bell/slave/ starter to do further inspection.
One of those miscommunicaty thingys you were referring too I believe we were having.
Thanks for the help,
And I probably will have to unbolt headers and possibly remove giant HEI dizzy, to keep from hitting the firewall when the motor tilts.
It is a big PITA, as I only have a slab of concrete that used to be a carport to work on. However, I am surprised given how tight some places are (ie pedal/ steering column area) that there's good room around the tranny.

W.E.G.

While you have the throwout bearing and the clutch disk out of the car, you might want to make sure they are the RIGHT ONES for the application.

85 ZXX

iTrader: (1)

Well, when its all taken apart and inspected you might want to change out the rear main engine oil seal while you are there.

86Z

iTrader: (4)

did you inspect the stud on the clutch pedal that the master cylinder rod connects to?

TennesseeIroc-Z

iTrader: (7)

Took my trans out yesterday, not too hard of a job really.
1 st inspection didn't show anything really abnormal. Clutch was installed correctly ( heavy duty unit can only go 1 way, hits flywheel the other way.
Stood back, scratched my noggin, smoked a cig, and started cleaning bellhousing, fork arm etc.
Seems the " dipstick" who pit the dipstick in didn't seat it into the block fully, when I checked the oil after I brought car home I noticed it low, added some but since dipstick is wrong I overfilled the engine, lucky me I only have ran engine maybe 5 minutes but was enough to squirt oil from valve cover rear all over the tranny....
Also, the trans had zero fluid in it so I kinda glad I did this. I've noticed several things that needed Fixing that otherwise I wouldn't have noticed.
You never know what you get when you buy someone's project...lucky I got this car cheap...

Anyways the only thing I noticed was after I cleaned the fork arm I saw a little wear in the fork arm bolt hole.. Nothing major but it was noticeable. After cleaning the fork ball, looks like it was wore down too, dunno if its supposed to be "rounded off" or not but for 10 bucks I suppose I'll buy a new 1 along with a fork arm.
I just don't know if it would be enough to cause my non-engagement issues. The clutch is fairly new, pressure plate and throughout look good too. The flywheel looks good, however on the back it says its a "perfection" unit with "made in china" stamped all over it. It a 2 piece rear seal motor and I imagine when he swapped from the old 1 piece 305 tpi he needed a new flywheel. This 1 worked before and it has hardly no wear on it so I don't see why it'd bethe problem. Has to be the fork arm.
Question: Summit sells flywheel shims, what would it hurt to shim my flywheel a few thousandths along with a new fork arm and ball just for security purposes? Could it really hurt anything? I know that if I shimmed too far it could cause an "over-engagement issue" but since I'm having these problems would it give me a little insurance?
Maybe go ahead and replace the throughout bearing too?

TennesseeIroc-Z

iTrader: (7)

Yes, installed new bushing here. A little wear, but nothing significant, and after new mater put on with new bushing clutch pedal assembly feels tight like new.

TennesseeIroc-Z

iTrader: (7)

On second notice, I went and looked at my pilot bearing, low and behold, no bearing. Just a wad of "grease" that used to be a bearing...this was on the main shaft as well. Bushing is still in the crank, but no bearing.
Wonder if this was it?

W.E.G.

Are you calling the throwout bearing a "pilot bearing?"

TennesseeIroc-Z

iTrader: (7)

No, the pilot bearing is inside the crankshaft. They sell either a bearing or a bushing, I'm searching around tryn to find the difference. The main shaft of the trans actually fits inside this in the crankshaft. I think I had a " stuck" pilot bearing/ bushing, or something.
Also having major trouble finding a replacement fork or clutch arm.
Arggg. What a PITA.

W.E.G.

Keep the faith!

TennesseeIroc-Z

iTrader: (7)

That diagram is actually from inside the trans. Whati am taking about is the pilot bushing which actually is inside the engine crankshaft. The purpose of this bearing or bushing is to support the trans main shaft as it goes through the clutch release ( throwout) bearing, clutch and pressure plate assembly, through the flywheel inside the pilot bearing.
With the flywheel removed, exposes the rear of the crankshaft, which has the six flywheel bolt holes, dowel, and in the center the pilot bushing.
Just ordered all my parts from summit, going with new clutch arm, ball stud, center force release bearing, ARP flywheel and pressure plate bolts, gm performance flywheel dowel (mine was missing) and a 0.030 flywheel shim.
If all else fails, throw $ at it....

W.E.G.

Without explaining why anybody would re-assemble without the bearing, this may explain how the bearing was previously removed, and why the "hole" was full of grease.

W.E.G.

If you ever find Wonder Bread in your crankshaft, there is a reason for that too.

TennesseeIroc-Z

iTrader: (7)

Well, just thought I'd update.

After removal of transmission, bellhousing ang clutch assembly, I couldn't find anything really obviously wrong. Clutch was installed correctly.
I went ahead and replaced the pilot bushing, throwout bearing, fork arm and ball stud. 3 things were possible- the pilot bushing looked "burnt", the throwout bearing was wore down a lot compared to the new RAM unit I purchased, and the fork arm was "scored" pretty bad inside the lil ball hole, and the ball stud was flattened out considerably compared to the new one.
Without new parts, I would've thought the old parts to be ok. The old throwout looked really old and worn, however the clutch and PP was almost brand new (flywheel too). Now why on earth would someone install a new clutch assembly and not a new throwout bearing? But that's what it looked like. It was wore down flat on the PP surface AND was off-center on the main shaft- it looked like crap.

When I ordered my new parts I had ordered a .030" flywheel/crankshaft shim just because I couldn't see any obvious reasons for the clutch to not engage. I went ahead and installed the shim too, just for good measure.

I now have an awesome clutch pedal, if anything I should've left out the shim- the pedal doesn't start releasing till about 2 inches off the floor, but its actually perfect for me.

I guess I'll never really know what was wrong, probably a combination of the pilot bushing, throwout bearing, and wore down clutch arm and fork ball.

Drove my iroc today for the first time, took out the T-tops, damn I love this car! On to the next project! (Paint).

Thanks to all who offered advice!

W.E.G.: I ended up purchasing that digital copy of the shop manual- best purchase yet!

t-top havoc

iTrader: (3)