Do you think the iat correction table would be able to compensate if I put the iat sensor in the intake manifold like I want to? The intake gets pretty warm when I shut it off. If not then I will put it in the charge piping just before the TB. I know it wont heatsoak the sensor, but it will heat up the remaining air in the intake which will lead to the same issue, probably worse then where I have it now, which is right behind the air filter.

 

leave it in the charge pipe as the sensor will get back to actual air temp faster on a restart there then it would in the intake

u want the sensor to react as fast as it can to changing air temps, which with a turbo air temps change pretty darn fast u can see as much as a 60*+ swing in 10 seconds or less

 

While Im at it, would it be better to cut the bung for the oil pan at a 45° angle where Im going to weld it to the pan? Then shave the remaining unused threads off of it?

 

i always do my oil pan bungs 90* to the side of the pan , just make sure to weld it up as high as possible the drain needs to be above the oil level in the pan


2 more things do not drain the oil out of the pan when u weld it , the thin film thats left can catch fire or worse explode , so poping the valve covers off isnt a bad idea either .

if the car has been running excessivly rich u can get fuel in the oil pan , if thats the case and the oil smells like gas change the oil before welding on the4 pan

 

Good info. What i meant with the 45° is the bung cut with that angle, then angling it up for better drainage. Would the side in the front portion of the pan be above the oil level while running?

 

it wont matter if u put it on a 45 or stright it wills till drain either way

the front of the pan shoudl be ok but not sure ive never put a bung there i always put them by the oil filter

 

Im planning on running it on the opposite side as you because of where the turbo will sit

 

drain should be on the driver side cause of the way the crank rotates it could blow air up into the drain. notice i said it could not it will.

thats why i always did mine on the driver side , though im sure it will be fine

 

It wouldnt be a good angle running the drain to the drivers side from where the turbo will sit. If it does blow air into it ill take the pan off and make a small shield around the drain to prevent it from happening though id imagine it shouldnt be a problem.

 

Here is where my 1/2 inch bung is as of now. Just welded on this fresh bung a few weeks back. Note that I added a 90* bend insted of that 1/2 to 10an straight that is on the pic. So it is not like that picture as of now. The 90* is much better for a direct route.

Also be grateful if you get to weld the bung on with the oil pan off. I will admit that over all the other things, thas was the hardest thing to do back when I first turboed the car 2 years ago. Mainly because the oil pan was still on the car and to make sure your sealing it up tight and not blowing the oil pan off from explosive oil fumes is not for the beginner let alone not getting metal shavings into the oil...lol Thankfully I got it sealed back then and didnt have any problems.

 

Here was my past routing. Obviously the feed doesnt matter. But the return just has to be angled down. It doesnt need to be a severe slope, just as long as its slopping you are fine. I never had any return issues with this run. The one pic is where the feed was tied down and the return was just laying there, the other picture is when I had the return tied down.

I know it wasent the most professional way to do it but it worked fine and Never did I ever have a oiling issue out of 5k miles and alot of 1/4 miles....

 

Good to know Mark, thanks.

Well since I have made the decision to start this weekend on the teardown and install, this will be a week of questions, lol.

The scoop I am going to do is going to need additional clearance from the upper rad support, and the fill cap for the rad will be in the way as well. I was planning on tilting the top of the rad towards the nose, which would allow me to modify the rad support for the scoop.

Here is my question, what are my options for the fan short of making a heat extractor vent in the hood? I dont really want it to blow hot air on the charge piping. Also I would probably wind up doing away with the hood latch and go with hood pins to make more room.

 

honestly i think ur over thinking it , i would just put the intercooler in the same spot everyone else does, specially witht hat tiny one u have

 

I would if I didnt already get what I did. I cant get anything else at this point. Im just trying to make room for the recessed scoop. Itll essentially be a ram air scoop, but it wont rise above the hood. In total I will wind up with a 3 1/2 or 4 1/2 inch tall scoop. Working in concert with the fan at low speeds it should work well for my needs. If I went with a larger turbo then I would have gotten a FMIC.

Just working with what I have cause there is nothing left to purchase anything with. Any fabrication is free, plenty of steel and sheetmetal to work with. However I do not have enough couplers or piping to put the IC in the grille.

Just trying to see what my options are for the fabrication of the scoop.

 

If you are going faster the 20mph and you have the intercooler where I have, unless you have a big ic or some major 2000cfm fan, the fan will not work better then the forced air current from the speed of your car. Look at where I put my newest one on my turbo thread. Believe me its simple will work great.

When I ran a ic 2 seasons ago thats the same placement I ran with the smaller Ic I had.

Im not trying to discourage you. Just saying that simple things work just as well in this application.

 

Yea im going to have it set to turn off around 20-30mph. I know itll just block the airflow over a certain speed. Its primarily for stop and go traffic or when im stopped at a light, or staging at the strip.

Since im running the small turbo and small ic, im trying to limit the amount of charge piping. As it is there will be less than 2 1/2 feet of piping from the turbo to ic, and the ic to the intake manifold. Im just matching everything size wise to the motor, turbo and ic to increase the efficiency of the whole picture.

I know a larger front mount intercooler will make a bigger difference, and that will be the route I take when I upgrade. For now its just a learning experience. And yes Dave, I overthink everything, lol.

 

if i were u i would go with no intercooler at first and see what the air temps look like , u have an all stock motor so u wont be moving mass amounts of air it may not even get the air hot , if it does add it later

 

Guess I can always try that. I dont remember if Chris ran it on the 2.8 or 3.1, but he said he ran it without the IC, also said anything over 15psi just pushed hot air, so at 6 psi to start it probably wont heat up at all. I know 12psi is just a number but thats about what my goal was, with the IC it should make for a really fun daily driver.

The Mercedes 300d ran it without an IC, or even provisions for one, but that was also a diesel motor.

Ill try it without first and see what happens.

 

Hey Dave, I switched over to TPS based AE/DE. Followed someones advice over on the MS forums. The AE was staying on too long, now I have it pretty good. Doesnt go rich anymore, goes right back to the AFR I wanted it too. I have the DE set to 75% of total fuel so its only going to about 12.7 AFR instead of 10+ when I let off.

So its coming along pretty well. Got the AE/DE/WE pretty close to where it needs to be.

How lean can I go at cruise before i get knock?

 

with the right timing u can get pretty lean upper 17's for the most part just lean it lil by lil or u will get alot of surging and lugging the engine as u have to take away some fuel then adjust timing lil by lil

if u do it all at once ull never get it right

 

I have mostly been working with the idle and cruise AFRs. I got around 15 for idle and 16 for cruise in 4th with the tcc locked without bogging or surging. Have to raise the AE a little bit cause slight throttle application will go lean, but a little more on the throttle keeps it from leaning out.

Seems to like cruising at 16 so far, around 2000rpms, 65-70 mph. A little richer in lower gears/speeds. It varies from 14.5-16 unless im really on it.

Im getting the hang of it. Tomorrow Ill post up another datalog and the current tune for you to take a look at it.

 

Ok, f this. Its missing again so Im cutting a block off plate out of aluminum and welding it to the intake manifold. Then it wont leak at all.

Just tired of dealing with that crap leaking.

Other than that Im getting great gas mileage cruising at a 16 AFR. I got the AE on TPS based and it no longer swings to 10+ AFR when I get on it. The DE is set around 70%, so it swings to around 12.9 when I let off. So that part is coming along well.

Still planning on starting the turbo install tomorrow. Stay tuned

 

Alright so i typed this long post then my phone died so ill make it quick.

This was my idea for the IC. Its a very compact setup.

Turbo to a 90°, a 45°, a 90° then the IC. Then straight shot to the TB. I also figured out how to do it without modding anything but the hood, it just wont be a recessed scoop.

Ill still install the turbo without the IC first, just to get it up and running, once thats done, ill keep an eye on the IAT, then worry about the IC later. But if im going up with boost, the IC is definitely going on.

Heres a couple pics so the description is better understood.

 

Dave I think I found the problem. Do you see what I see?

 

And the plot thickens.

This pic is with the balancer on 0°.

I dont remember exactly, but isnt it supposed to be lined up at 0° as thats what the base timing is set to? If thats the case it doesnt line up perfectly until the timing mark is at 22°.

If thats not the way its supposed to be then I think I have a defective distributor. Nothing else really makes sense.

 

Double post

 

Pic

 

Uhhh, that's what base timing adjustment is for.

Also where is the air flow through the IC? It's the air flow that reduces the intake air temp, not just having an IC.

 

The problem is that the rotor is not where it was when we set the base timing to 0.

Sorry but I have enough common sense to realize you need airflow across an IC for it to work. It was just a mock-up. I have said numerous times I am making a scoop for it after the turbo is installed and we see what the IATs are like.

 

But it's a different rotor, is it not? This is why you always need to check timing everything a components that interacts with or may have an effect on timing is replaced.

I have not read about any scoop...

If you are talking about a scoop on the hood above the intercooler, I think you will find that it will not be as effective as a properly installed front mount. There needs to be a pressure differential between one side of teh IC core and the other. In this case there should be a pressure differential, but because there's also air coming in through the rad, the pressure differential will not be as great as it should be, especially when using such a small intercooler core.

Also you don't want to use a 90 directly at the turbocharger outlet, at least not a silicone 90 like you are showing pictures of above. In many cases the soft 90s at the turbocharger outlet fail, due to the pressure wave that is greater at this point in the charge piping. Many people have been able to use a metal 90 at the turbocharger outlet without failure. Ideally however, you want to use bends that are the least sharp as possible. So if there's a way to orient the housing or the entire turbo itself to use as straight as tube as possible, the overall system will work better.

 

It's a good idea, just be sure to, like you already mentioned, build a box or scoop for it. The L98 Callaway Corvette's did something similar, as they rested two of them (flat) right next to the valve covers (which is far from desirable), then modified the hood to allow for the necessary air. Wasn't the greatest of setups, but it worked for them, and they just wanted to sell some cars. They soon figured it out, in a similar way to your idea, and that was to have the IC's placed behind the radiator (upright, engine side of course), then fabricated their own individual boxes in which worked with a custom hood to draw in the necessary air. They did this on their Sledgehammer Corvette, Click Here. Don't bother running a turbo without an intercooler unless your running alky, especially residing in Florida...

 

I agree with this. I ran my car (my Datsun) for about 3 years without an IC, because I just didn't get around to building it (custom IC from Ford Turbocoupe IC cores), and I could only really run about 10 PSIG on my car, and even then, the intake temps would reach about 160* F, I tried 15 PSIG once, and saw intake temps almost 200* F, and didn't even take it to red line because of that!

With the IC, my intake temps get colder under boost than cruising.

 

With the engine at TDC #1 the rotor will not be directly adjacent to the terminal in the cap. With the engine at 22* BTDC and the rotor lining up, that is correct (or, close enough). This is due to the rotor to cap terminal alignment changing as the spark advance changes.

Then as the spark advance nears 40* BTDC the rotor will be aligned to the other side of the cap's terminal.

RBob.

 

Six, i am not going to be trivial about it but there are more than 10 posts where I discuss fabricating a scoop. I wouldnt put it there without a scoop because that would be idiotic and asking to blow something up. To create a pressure differential I could, and i stress could, put a duct under the IC, straight to the bottom of the engine bay. I am still undecided, but this is the setup I am running with for now until I get the funds to change it. Its a small turbo and those are 4ply couplers; the wastegate spring is set at 6 psi. Though I will try to clock the coldside housing to try to use the 45° there instead of the 90°.

 

Street Lethal, good point. Thats why I wanted to do the IC right off the bat living in Fl. I know there are numerous vehicles using the top mount intercooler, some better than others, and its a learning experience, I will tweak where I can to make it better, this is only what I am starting with.

 

What turbo were you running when you got those IAT temps? I am only running a Diesel T3 to start. Bl85c ran the same turbo without an IC and said it didnt heat up until run in excess of 12-15 psi. So I will keep an eye on IATs. If the heat excessively then I wont drive it until the IC is on.

 

Thanks for that info. If thats the case then it isnt wrong. The new rotor however had a smaller key on it then the old one, so the new rotor had alot of play in it. Ill be running the old rotor until I get the funds to grab a new one. I got a crapload of junk steel Im going to run to the scrapyard.

Thanks RBob, you always seem to have the exact answer I am looking for.

 

Ok so I stopped in autozone and advance and had them pull a few rotors off the shelf for me. ALL of them have the key that is too small. What the hell is up with aftermarket companies changing the specs on something that was fine to begin with?

I figure I will find something really thin to epoxy on both sides of the key to make it the right width; seems to be the only option I have at this point cause I dont have money to throw at the issue.

 

just saw this , how bad is the old rotor with the wider key in it?

once u get the rotor sorted im going to post u up a test map for making sure u have the correct offset in the tune

 

The key on the old one isnt bad, and I cleaned up the point, but its about 3-4 playing cards shorter than the new one. Ill use the old one till I can make the key on the new one the proper width. Im sure ill get noise but until I either "fix" the new one or find one with the proper key, im stuck using the old one for now :/

 

ok the test map is basically an ignition map with all the advance numbers set to the same number across the whole map ( say 16* ) u load the map and then check the timing

if the timing comes up as say 10* u need to adjust the offset in the tune so that the actual number u get witht he light matches whats in the map

 

I dont think this will leak again, lol. I can always drill and tap the center for nitrous/meth/ etc...

 

Damn, i always forget the pic, lol

Once it cools Ill get everything back together and try that test map. Am I doing that with the bypass plugged or unplugged?

 

6.5 Diesel turbo. It's really too large for the application, especially at lower boost levels, but once it spools, oh man is it fun!

 

Lol, i bet. I like the diesel turbos, for the most part they spool sooner, so it wont really lag that bad. Im sure ill have some lag but nothing too bad.

 

Datalog. This is with the old rotor. 2 resets, bunch of misses, I know its not the egr blockoff plate, no way in hell. Old rotor, most likely.

 

Well i found one with the right sized key, however where the spark jumps from is too short. I may get a rotor and cap, thinking maybe both need to be replaced in order to close the gap? I have no idea, they dont make any parts right anymore

 

might be time to pull the strap off the old rotor and mount it to the new one

 

Strap? Is that what im calling the point? If it is then i need to pull the strap off the new one and put it on the old one. The new one is longer of the two.

 

i dont know if u could actually get it back on without breaking the rotor though , i would only do it as a last resort