Deweywolf

iTrader: (1)

I have a question. I made some passes with my Camaro and couldn't hook up. I was told that an adjustable toque arm would help alot. I have been looking at the Spohn Crosmember mounted arm, but a friend of mine (who doesn't specifically do Camaros) said that half the problem with the Fbody is the length of the torque arm. Jegs sells a short torque arm, I was wondering has anyone used one, and how do they like it? I saw it mentioned on another forum that the short arm caused alot of wheel chatter. Is an ajustable stock length better? It actually costs less for the short one.

-Rob
http://www.spohn.net/shop/1982-1992-...nsmission.html

vs

http://www.jegs.com/i/Jegster/550/40097/10002/-1

stage20

iTrader: (3)

if you plan on going fast..... long tube headers, exhaust etc. i would not buy a spohn arm. its horrible for working around, IMO.

i like the burkhart chassis piece. trz also will have one out shortly. neither is a bolt in piece.
the bmr track pak is similar to the ones mentioned above, but welding is required.
there is no better piece, they will all work great depending on what you have or plan to do.
the spohn is 100% bolt in no welding, but there mount gets in the way of everything.
crossbar on the bmr or the burkhart could be an issue with some single exhaust setups.

study them all and go with what works best for you.

UMI Sales

Hello
I just wanted to leave you know that UMI Performance offers a variety of torque arms. Below is a link to show you what all we have to offer!

http://www.umiperformance.com/catalo...dex&cPath=6_93

If you have any other questions feel free to ask!
Thanks
Brad

stage20

iTrader: (3)

nothing at all wrong with UMI products, but there brace is very similar to the spohn design. makes it a bear for exhaust with long tube headers.

UMI Sales

Then another suggestion for you go with a Relocation Cross Member and you will still maintain protection for the tail shaft. It will be able to handle anything you would like to throw at it. Below is a link to show all the cross members we have to offer!

http://www.umiperformance.com/catalo...ex&cPath=6_178

If you have any other questions feel free to ask!
Thanks
Brad

89ROC-Z

iTrader: (7)

what kind of tires and shocks are you running? how big of a stall?

I'd get some good drs or slicks if you don't already, and some qa1 shocks

Deweywolf

iTrader: (1)

Currently I'm running 255/60/15 Radial TAs, I need some slicks but don't really have the money right now. I have a 1850 stall and some basic KYB shocks.

Deweywolf

iTrader: (1)

So your basically saying you like short torque arms? I actually have headers to a y-pipe to 3 in back to a 2 chamber dual exit flowmaster. Do long tube header even fit under the car? Last time I saw that they hung all the way under the floorboards.
Besides fitting the exhaust whats the drive-ability and performance difference from a full length torque arm to a short torque arm?

89ROC-Z

iTrader: (7)

Tires are a major problem. I had the exact same tire on my tpi 5 speed and they sucked. Used drag radials can be found cheap too. Shocks should be fine for now, just get some good tires and see where that brings ya

Main reason is that it takes the strain off the tail of the trans

BMR Sales

Hello, a shorter torque arm will hit the tires harder than a full length torque arm. Like like stage20 stated our Trak Pak or Xtreme Torque arm require welding in a cross brace. If your car is a 10 second car or slower you can use a full length arm with a torque arm relocation bracket and have great results.

Also if you use a relocation bracket for the torque arm you have adjustment holes at the front of the torque arm. Raising the front of the torque arm will hit the tires harder and lowering it will hit them softer.

Our shorter arms will give you a better 60' than the full length arm. They ride a little rougher on the street due to the more solid mount in the front, but nothing unbearable. Here is a link to our site. If you have any other questions please let me know.

http://www.bmrfabrication.com/F3.htm

Deweywolf

iTrader: (1)

Perfect thanks!

stage20

iTrader: (3)

i would like to try a short arm, dont know if it would benefit me more.
my car leaves hard, so the long arm keeps the front end down more than a short arm would without really tuning the chassis.
unless you plan to go hardcore, it sounds like you just need an adjustable arm that bolts in the stock location. you can always buy a relocation bracket later, as umi posted above.
bmr has a similar piece as well.

i myself would buy strange shocks. i dont want any qa1 on the car.

Guest

You have that backwards.

The shorter arm will keep the nose of the car down more than a long arm. The longer arm allows the nose to lift easier...Why?

...Because the IC or pivot point (think of it as a teeter totter pivot) is further forward and as inertia from the rear wheels pushes the car forward, the nose weight will pivot over the rear easier becasue the ppivot is further forward and the amout of weight before the oivot is lighter than the amount of chassis weight behind the pivot.

Changing the hight of the pivot like BMR states makes the weight motion transfer fore to aft either go over the pivot, or under it. If it transfers over the pivot (pivot point lower) then the tires hit harder (too hard can bounce back which is bad), the higher pivot transfer through the pivot laterally which loads the rear tires softer as again BMR stated correctly.

Dean

Guest

Further more, the higher HP PLUS grip (note I say, "PLUS GRIP") will increase forward inertia and thus yank the front chassis weight backwards at much greater rates. THUS, a shorter arm is needed to move the pivot point rear as to leverage more front chassis weight as the nose lifts easir due to that higher HP and grip.

Deweywolf

iTrader: (1)

So without high horsepower, is a short torque arm worthless or perhaps anti-productive?
I'm running a truck CAM right now as far as I can tell I got 220hp 310fpt? I'm not really sure....
Anyways its not high horsepower, decent torque though.

WIll36

iTrader: (12)

seems like Vetruck is saying that high horse power cars with good traction benefit from a shorter torque arm. This based on lifting the front end.

383fbod

iTrader: (2)

How dose the shorter arm help the road race cars? Im pretty sure the camaro mustang challange guys use them.Possibly a decoupled one?
Somthing about wheelhop during braking. It seems to me like the shorter arm would make wheel hop worse on deceleration.

DIGGLER

iTrader: (1)

main thing is the shorter arm will hit the tires harder. HIGH horsepower cars may hit the tires too hard with the short arm.
this is why the lakewood bars or whoever made them dont work with alot of power. they are just too short.

Guest

Possibly a decoupled one?
I would like to see the top winners in CMC using one of these. I personally have not, but can assume they yeild thottle slop in trail braking and modulation to set a chassis through a corner.

Guest

Its all about overall setup. A short or long can be made to work.

This is about how the power is applied to the chassis and where it is applied in lifting... and what that lifting point and rate affects the chassis balance in dynamic roll.

The same is said on the braking side under squat, this also has another factor of brake bias.

So many settngs, you start playing with a shorter tqarm and you forst had better have the money to change spring and shock rates as well as the knowhow about what you are doing in setup.


This can not be taught on a website how to go buy parts and get your car correct- it is an extensive trial and error in testing to get it working.

In respect to a quote Norm Petersom wrote awhile back which I will steal and use (no truer words spoken) "Even the best engineers in the top car makers can do all they want on paper and in theory, but every chassis platform design has to be shaken down in fine tuning in real world testing on a test track."- Not an exact quote from him, but close enough to the point.

Alot of questions asked on here will yes get you going in the right direction in purchases, but if you do not understand chassis dynamics and the need to change other thnigs in relation then you will only hurt the cars performance and make much bigger problems than leaving the factory configurations.

Dean

Deweywolf

iTrader: (1)

So in my case with stock Iroc spring, non adjustable panhard bar, and Lower control arms, I would get more ease of use and equal benefit out of a full length torque arm?

DIGGLER

iTrader: (1)

if your car doesnt make alot of power i would go with the short arm. it will hit the tires harder.

Guest

If you are anywhere under lets say about 400 rwhp, I would just go with the stock length torque arm.

When I talk about serious HP and grip, I am talking about 800-1000 hp and 26x12 slicks, not some street tire car used for daily driving.

Just my opinion folks.

You get the heavy HP cars and you will need the shorter arm to adjust the nose height of the Tqarm for more critical dialin of even level lateral launch. I higher HP car will need that nose pivot lower and the IC pivot higher as the nose lifts under grip and motions rearward loading the rear tire sidewalls.

DIGGLER

iTrader: (1)

do you have any links/reading to support this theory? my thinking was that the torque arm's front mount height will not change anything since it is only pushing up on the car during acceleration. move the mount down 2" and its still pushing up on that same spot on the chassis.
i can see the front mount height making a difference on a ladder bar setup since the arms/ladderbars are actually pushing the car foward.

shorter arms will have more leverage to produce anti-squat, and the longer arm will have less leverage. therefore big hp cars will need a longer bar to prevent hitting the tires too hard. (800+hp nitrous cars etc.)

BMR Sales

Adjusting the front mounting position of the torque arm moves the instant center. Raising the front of the torque will hit the tires harder but it will be a shorter quicker hit. Lowering the front of the torque arm will soften the hit but will sustain it for a longer period. Hope that helps. If you have any additional questions let me know.

faulty81

x2 ^^ moving the mounting point will change your i/c and a/s, as you want your a/s 100% or just a little over.

383fbod

iTrader: (2)

So what is the benifit of one like this?
http://www.unbalancedengineering.com/Camaro/

customblackbird

iTrader: (15)

hmm this thread is good so far. alot of good tech. so a shorter arm is not good for anything less than 400rwhp?
is my fabbed tq arm too short?
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/susp...djustable.html

i dnt like the unbalanced engineering one. since the front of the tq arm is not attached at a fixed point. as vetruck will and has said this causes issues since the arm isnt attached at the front.

Deweywolf

iTrader: (1)

I have been told this really is the best of both worlds. The front is connected solidly under acceleration so you cant tell the difference. With the decouple you get the deceleration carecteristics of the stock length. Otherwise the short ones give you more wheel hop on braking than stock length. This is from what i've read not my experience.

Guest

I have never tried one, But I can only imagine it having a little bit of feel to it like a broken trans mount.

I would not want to spend the money on this and find out I am just another ginuea pig to hype.

Blackbird, Things really depend on chassis overall setup (Combination of parts and settings, you'll have to work the bugs out to get this correct through trial and error) AND trie grip. It really cant just be put into a HP reading higher or lower than estimate. It could be good on a 250hp car if the car is setup correctly to the parts modification. Just depends on the car's weight bias, and overal weight.You can get a 200hp car light enough to lift the front weight and rock it over the rear with a short torque arm, its just a marraige of weights and componants. Its not just how the wieght hits the tires, but also how it sustains the weight on the tires. 1000hp designated drag car will hit the tires hard low and long. You get that nose to high and over you go. It will hit the short arm hard, but will keep the nose low and still through massive grip and power will sustain the front leveraged nose weight up and over the IC and onto the rear wheels much longer than a lower HP car with heavy front weight.

Deweywolf

iTrader: (1)

If I had $850 I would like to try a unbalanced engineering one. But alas I do not. I have decided to go with a bolt in trany crosmember mounted torque arm with a spherical tie rod end for ease of installation and price.

faulty81

stop reading into horsepower, dont restrict yourself with what you thinkg your car will make. The Burkhart in my opinion is the best out there. Its fully adjustable, pinion angle and your instant center. With that you could get relocating brakets and also change your instant center that way. The main thing in gettingg a car to hook no matter what the hp output is SHOCKS end of story. Double adjustable, nut up and get the d/a or dont buy them at all. Now with that being saidthe burkhart is a shorter arm but that doesnt matter when you are talking about i/c, because of the diffrent mounting points, you are connectiong two points in space, not the actual mounting points. Go and use a i/c calculator. Now as far as keeping the front end down, you need to limit the travel and also the SHOCKS will effect that. get d/a front coil overs.

I dont know maybe its because im not a "street" guy but thats how I roll. Dont buy the **** twice, get it bullet proof and go from there.

383fbod

iTrader: (2)

It is attached just not at the front like conventional TQ arms. There is a sliding brake link at the top. I just wonder how much resistance that offers between power and brake.

customblackbird

iTrader: (15)

thanks vetruck ill just have to lay down some rubber in the name of science!