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OK, so I've been reading a TON, watching lots of videos, and I think I'm gonna tackle the job of painting my car. It'll likely be next summer, but I'm doing my homework now. This is not going to be a showstopper 10 outta 10 paint job, but I do want to do my best to do it "right".
So here's my situation, leading into my question. The car had a not so great respray several years ago, and several very minor dings. It'll definitely needs lots of sanding, some skim/filler here and there, no doubt not just a quick scuff and shoot. Might have to replace a fender, as well as one piece of the GFX. My plan was to do all the body work, then lay down a sealer. Give the base something to bond to, plus give it a consistent color to lay down basecoat on. I've also been reading that unless you're a experienced professional doing a top tier paint job, you really wanna lay down metallic paint with the parts of the car all assembled. Makes sense with all the different variables potentially affecting the way the metal flake lays on the car. ...but if you have lots of areas like door jambs, and areas of the decklid under the spoiler, and door parts under the GFX, all covered in a generic sealer grey...they'll all need paint. What's the process? Do you simply HAVE to paint the car in pieces? ...or do you trim out those areas first, then assemble the car, and THEN give it a final base coat clear coat?
For the record, stock color is 1988 Gunmetal Grey Metallic. Will either go back stock, or a very similar color.
...and a follow up question regarding metallics. I get that ideally, you have the best chance of being consistent with the metal flake if everything is painted together. Is this a hard and fast rule, and that there's a good chance I won't be happy with the results if I paint it apart? ...or is it more of a loose kinda sorta maybe not a big deal unless it's a 10 of 10 show car job. Makes things easier for a lot of reasons if I can paint in pieces.
I will preface my comments by saying that I am not a painter, at all however I have painted and used metallic paint and this is my experience.
What I experienced is you need to be very consistent and correct meaning your gun distance and angle, travel speed, overlap correct and consistent, air pressure correct and consistent, you see where this is going. I once had a nib after I laid down base on a silver metallic hood and used a different touch up gun and you can see it, its not "sore thumb bad but in direct sunlight you can tell. I chalk that up to both the fact it was a different gun and travel direction, possibly air pressure. Air pressure has a big affect on how the metallic lays so too high and too low seem to be equally bad. If you haven't painted before get some junk sheetmetal and practice first.
As far as painting in pieces, you can do it but they need to be oriented by the panels so you can paint across them going right across from one to the other or I'm certain you will see it. How to get the jambs I cannot say for sure.
Aside from those things, preparation is gold. Spending extra time prepping will pay off and is every bit as important as laying down color. One more suggestion is good gun(s). I read a post once that said to buy a high end gun like a Tekna Prolite and sell it once you are done, they hold their value and make you chances of success much higher. The last nugget I have is to get a high quality clear, I have used a few of the budget clears and found I was having to compensate with cut a buff to get the gloss but when I used a good PPG clear it sprayed very flat and was much easier to spray. I cannot explain why but it did. See below, this is an "as sprayed" test panel with PPG clear and Tekna Prolite gun.
Dang that fender looks pretty good! ....and yeah, I follow everything that you said. Good advice. ...my hood and roof are completely shot, so I'll probably repaint those and get some practice in. Paint really can't get WORSE at this point so even if it ain't great, oh well, lol!
There are several methods to handle your questions, and while there are wrong ways to perform a paintjob...there aren't really any incorrect processes. It just depends on the level of finish you are expecting.
If you want no tape lines in your jambs, etc...and you decide to disassemble the car to paint, there is all that extra work after it's been assembled (probably at least twice).
You want all your heavy body work, and stripping of the old offending finish completed first, with as much disassembly done as you can. (or wish to do...) Priming and blocking should be done assembled, so (again) your body lines are blocked to perfection. Panel alignment is key, so although you can paint everything off the vehicle, (and nothing is stopping you)...you have to remember that you need to re-assemble the car, line up all body lines, panels and gaps... All while minding that you don't nick, chip, or scratch your fresh paint. (very difficult to do without assistance on these cars...you really have to trust that your help is of the same mind as you, and they don't drop their end of the panel) Marking bolt positions can help for reassembly, but gets complicated if you are painting over your marks.
There are ways to make sure your coats are even and the metallic carries if all the panels are off, but not easy if you are a first timer. Even GM had color issues for several years, in the attempt to save paint on the line. You could see a color difference at the edges of the doors and fenders. It was actually brighter at the edges of the panels and darker in the centers because of the overlap. (and they had robots) High metallics and even reds were offenders.
If it's your first refinish attempt and you want it nice, I would suggest a hybrid approach. Pull the bumpers, hood, and hatch...(you may want to loosely hang the bumpers for metallic consistency, and color uniformity from the side view.) You can tape off the engine bay, and hatch opening, get full color and clear in there without tape lines, and they're easy panels to hang. Leave the fenders and doors on the car, (for the exterior refinish) and jamb the car separately. You can also pull the fenders and doors before final block, and jamb the a-pillars, re-hang everything, fine tune your lines and prep...and paint the car with the door hardware out, carefully open the doors while painting, to jamb the rockers and b-pillars at the same time. (also giving a seamless look) This, also can create the possibility of more dirt, and even fisheyes in the finish, as you are disturbing the air in and out of the vehicle while you are in the midst of the refinish process.
@PaulyC is correct on your choice of materials, but I would even press you to use the same product line through the course of the repairs. While you may never experience any issues if you don't, it's easier to track down a problem and maybe even get some assistance from the paint company if you do have issues. For instance, I wouldn't use Dupont wash primers with PPG build primer and Akzo basecoat (because you love the color) and Standox clear. Most of one line's products are designed to work together, especially by the time you get to sealer/base/clear. They are designed to crosslink together to get the most resilient finish possible.
Again, it's all in your perspective on the level of finish you are attempting.
Good luck, and most of all...have fun in the learning
I did the majority of the prep on my 89 under the guidance of my friend who's garage did the actual paint. I came in after hours, and did lots of sanding, and bought lots of pizza and beer. I learned a LOT, and basically paid for materials and a little labor. Still, for all I learned, it's hard to put together a coherent plan as far as what will work and what wont.
I plan to do this in my garage, and will bill build a make shift booth, although it'll be fairly open. I've seen a few friends paint cars on a tarp over gravel driveways, wide out in the open, and get pretty good paint for the condition. I figure I can build something and do a lot better. -at least in terms of dirt/dust/bugs. I hope to track this car, so a 10 outta 10 quality paint job isn't my goal. What I DO wanna do is learn how to do this "right". Or at least to the best of my ability within what would be considered "reasonable" effort. Lotta grey area statements in there I know, lol. My goals and expectations aren't for perfection. What I'd like is for people to see it and be impressed that it was my first paint job and I did it in my garage! Make sense???
Just noticed, you're in Jamestown. I'm near Eden, close to the VA border. I am off with some health concerns now, but hope to back in shape after the first of the year. If you need any pointers when the bodywork starts, send me a note...
im not a pro but I painted my truck as practice and learned a LOT... was my first time... I also did bits and pieces here and there so i gained a lot of info / technique....
Id suggest at the least gettign a spare or junkyard fender and practicing spraying on it. practicing will be your friend.
I did metallic in pieces... just make sure the paint is the same batch,,,, it looks sooooo much better with no lines, clean door jambs,..... etc... BUT its also more messy, takes a TON of space and like it was mentioned...... .you need to put it back together without scratching it up..... also it takes so much more time.....
Just noticed, you're in Jamestown. I'm near Eden, close to the VA border. I am off with some health concerns now, but hope to back in shape after the first of the year. If you need any pointers when the bodywork starts, send me a note...
Ahhh Cool!!! OK, sounds good. I may hit you up when the time comes!
Id suggest at the least gettign a spare or junkyard fender and practicing spraying on it. practicing will be your friend.
Yeah, I agree. My hood is pretty banged up, and will likely not be worth the effort to save if it's even possilbe. My plan is to paint/practive on that.
Ahhh Cool!!! OK, sounds good. I may hit you up when the time comes!
Yeah, I agree. My hood is pretty banged up, and will likely not be worth the effort to save if it's even possilbe. My plan is to paint/practive on that.
On a side note, if you don't have your equipment yet...
1. (saying liek a kid) Buy the biggest most bestest most awesomest compressor you can afford.... you need as much air as possible to paint
2. What gun will you be using?? I used a LVLP cause the biggest compressor I could afford was a 30 gallon craftsman which does ok but just keeps up with the LVLP gun. ie seen people use a HVLP with smal lcompressors but their painting is slowed by waiting for the compressor to catchup a lot
I have a friend who's been painting with a turbine sprayer for many years. ...I plan to go that route since I've been able to put eyes on the finished product, the price of equipment, and small footprint.
I have a friend who's been painting with a turbine sprayer for many years. ...I plan to go that route since I've been able to put eyes on the finished product, the price of equipment, and small footprint.
They're actually pretty cool. I follow the "Paint Society" on youtube, and the guy demo'd one and was impressed. Turns out I have a friend who's been using one all along! He's echoed what a lot of youtubers have said. They're very robust and reliable, portable, very low overspray and cost effective if you don't already have everything for a compressor set up. Pretty much nothing from an air-compressor set up carries over. Even the guns, though they're just HVLP set ups, but slightly different. Anyhow, because the air is heated, you don't need any moisture filters. You DO need to add about 15 degrees to ambient temperature when choosing a reducer, simply to slow down the drying.
Anyhow, my buddy uses an older TP Tools showtime unit, and he loves it. I guess these turbines were mainly used for furniture finishing for years and years, and it's only recently that automotive industry has started using them. Anyhow, these TP Tools systems are intended for automotive finishing, and I've found lots of people who've used 'em on various other forums. As I was saying earlier about the guns, you've gotta use a gun intended for turbines. There ARE some good ones out there, but selection is obviously a lot more limited. That being said, the gun that come with the new TP Tools system has a lot of good reviews. I spoke with a guy on the Factory Five forum who painted two Cobras that he's built for customers, and he's still using that same gun that comes with the kit. TP's Customer service has been great too. I've talked to them a few times asking LOTS of questions.
Turbines were actually a precursor to the limited HVLP systems we have today...they just never really caught on. I never sprayed it, but one of my first employers had an old Devilbiss Finish Line turbine system. (This was in the late 80's/early 90's) It looked like a vacuum cleaner, and sat in the corner covered in dust. You'd be hard pressed to get an experienced paint tech (paid on flat rate in a production environment) to re-learn and go through what it takes to spray with a turbine system. They are a little tougher to get a super nice flat finish vs. conventional HVLP air spray. Usually a little more pressure than these require, gives you better atomization of product, but less transfer efficiency.
A painter at a custom shop may be more open to utilizing a turbine system. I've found they are a little more willing to change. They are definitely worth looking at for someone who would have to purchase a compressor, guns, dryer, hoses etc... for a one or two time use for home environment, however... (especially when you need at least a 19 cfm two-stage with storage capacity compressor)
This does not solve the necessity for a compressor for sanding/grinding/sandblasting, etc...
I agree with a lot of what you said. ....especially the part about experienced paint techs re-learning. A friend of mine used to be a paint tech and he said the same thing. As for the flatter finish, I've heard that too, but that it was more of a problem with older systems. The guy on Paint society said that he felt there was a little more peel with the turbine, but that the skill level difference between a DIY garage painter and an experienced pro was far wider than the difference between compressor and modern turbine. I of course have no experience so I can't say.
As for additional tool, yes, you are correct. I don't have room for a compressor big enough to properly paint, and I DO feel I'll use it again for various projects. A friend and I are working on an old F100 so I already have a second use, plus of course all the little things here and there over time. Guess we'll see, but it seems to make sense.
So my buddy has an old TP Tools 2 stage, and he says it gets orange peel. The guy I watch on youtube used a 5 stage professional quality system, and he said while there may be a slight difference, a lot of the old problems were due to the lower number of stages and turbines offering a lower pressure, and people using the same size tips as they do with regular systems. You need to go smaller. Anyhow, a lot of what I've read on the internet says the DIY guy won't notice a difference between a 3, 4 and 5 stage, which is what most of 'em are these days. A pro will likely notice. ...all that being said, my buddy with the old 2 stage painted a silver car OUTSIDE in his backyard, and I was blown away. Upon close up inspection it certainly wasn't perfect, but again, as a DIY guy I have realistic expectations, and a 10 of 10 show quality job isn't what I'm after.
...and I'm good with a buffer, so I'm concerned with bugs more than orange peel, LOL
...and I'm good with a buffer, so I'm concerned with bugs more than orange peel, LOL
Very late '70s / early '80s, the guy who painted my brothers Dart did it in lacquer (not unusual in itself at the time) in his driveway. And this WAS a show car, and a show finish when done. But the multiple layers of soft, forgiving lacquer made it possible to remove large items (bugs, dirt) from the paint before it dried. And of course, it polished to a tremendous shine. Not as hard and durable as enamels, but very, very forgiving to work with.
Now with the Duplicolor Paint Shop (lacquer) product taking the guess work out of mixing for the completely inexperienced novice (me), it makes me want to try painting something!
So my buddy has an old TP Tools 2 stage, and he says it gets orange peel. The guy I watch on youtube used a 5 stage professional quality system, and he said while there may be a slight difference, a lot of the old problems were due to the lower number of stages and turbines offering a lower pressure, and people using the same size tips as they do with regular systems. You need to go smaller. Anyhow, a lot of what I've read on the internet says the DIY guy won't notice a difference between a 3, 4 and 5 stage, which is what most of 'em are these days. A pro will likely notice. ...all that being said, my buddy with the old 2 stage painted a silver car OUTSIDE in his backyard, and I was blown away. Upon close up inspection it certainly wasn't perfect, but again, as a DIY guy I have realistic expectations, and a 10 of 10 show quality job isn't what I'm after.
...and I'm good with a buffer, so I'm concerned with bugs more than orange peel, LOL
Being proficient with a buffer will save almost any paint job. It was the first thing I had to learn before my mentor would even put a D.A. in my hands.
I have read that you need to bust it down to a 1.0 tip... (depending on the gun, most conventional HVLP's are using 1.2-1.4 tip) It almost baffles me that we used to use a 2.0 tip for primer, and I broke down my old Devilbiss JGA to a 1.8 for base and clear... I suppose I am really showing my age now.
Have to joined Hotrodders.com? They have a autobody section on their forum. Lots of good information there.
There is also a site called www.spiuserforum.com As you peruse the site you will find they manufacture and sell epoxy sealer/primer. They also have a clear top coat also. The topics on body painting is better than any course you could attend.
Take a look and see what you think.
Mike
09-16-2021, 07:31 AM
