READ THIS! if you're considering a brake conversion!!!!

I was considering powder coating the brackets I made for my brake conversions, I talked to a friend who does powder coating and I learned a strange thing today- I learned about 2 different people who power coated their flex plates, both of them had the bolts come loose after a few hours of operation. It seems if there's a heavy layer of powder coating where the fastener seats, the power coating can flow out from under the fasteners when heat and stress start to build up. This unloads the bolt and things start to move around and break off.

Both of these poor people thought the bearings were going in their new motors because of the noise the loose bolts were making, one person found it when he pulled the trans out, the other persons engine builder found out what happened right after he dropped the engine off for inspection.

When I heard this today, the first thing I thought of was some of the stories I've heard about people having problems with the fasteners coming loose on their brake conversion brackets. Not all of them were powder coated, but identifying any possible cause of these fasteners coming loose could help prevent some of the horror stories I've heard about wheels locking up and sudden loss of brakes. A thick coating of paint, dirt, grime or a crappy chrome job will also cause problems.

Here's what I did and what I recommend to anyone who uses my brake brackets or anyone else's brackets. I used the stock 12 mm bolts to hold the caliper holder to the conversion bracket, and I used 1/2 inch standard hex head grade 8 coarse thread bolts to hold the conversion bracket to the spindle. No washers, no lock washers! Make sure everything fits properly and check to see if any of the bolt heads need to be ground for clearance. Also check to see if any shims need to be placed anywhere to center the caliper holder over the rotor properly. Use steel shims.

Once you know how everything bolts together and that it will bolt together properly, clean everything to bare metal wherever bolts, threads, brackets, spindles, and caliper mounting brackets touch each other. Clean off any rust, scale, dirt, oil, grease, whatever. If the brackets have a heavy coating of powder coat or paint, remove the coating or paint on the contact areas. Bare clean metal to bare clean metal is best but a thin coating properly applied should be OK.

Now put it together with red loctite and tighten it up real good. Here's another trick used on rod bolts and main bearing caps that helps- right after you tighten a bolt, loosen it right away and tighten it again, you'll notice the bolt will turn a little further the second time with the same amount of force. This extra step really helps bed everything together and keep it stable under heat and stress. Make sure you make the bolts TIGHT. Once they're tightened with red loctite, do not disturb them unless you're willing to take the bolt out, clean everything again and tighten them again. While we're on the subject, if you use loctite on studs, it's important to have a full load on the stud while the loctite dries. After you tighten the fasteners, a dab of paint will help determine if the fastener has turned since it was installed.


About chrome- 2 problems with chrome on structural parts if not done properly- one problem is hydrogen embrittlement. Google "chrome hydrogen embrittlement" and you'll see. Also, the platers will copper plate a part before they chrome it, the copper plating helps bind the chrome to the part, and the chrome fills in the part like body filler to make the chrome smooth. If they get a little crazy with the soft copper plating, it could cause the same instability as powder coating, paint, rust, dirt, or scale which could lead to loose bolts. Make sure the plater knows what he's doing!

The steel used to make the brackets can cause the same problem. Some cheap steel plate can be too soft or have fissures and contamination that would allow the material to distort under heat and stress and unload the fasteners. I use good material such as GR50 for my brackets.

Remember, we're upgrading our brakes to make our cars safer, not to create a safety hazard.

Chris Krug
AKA serpent99

 

Chip maybe "FLOW OUT" because of heat not really. If your getting parts upto 395-400* where powders FLOW you have other problems.

Powder goes on 1-3 MILLS thick. Thick enough to make a big diff. not really. Take the same precautions as if it wasnt coated.

Same goes if its painted,powder coated, chrome plates, por 15ed, zinc coated etc....

hydrogen embrittlement easy enough to lessen the chances. any GOOD chrome shop that does structural parts knows to bake em for hydrogen embrittlement relief of the parts.

Guns, rims,pullies, etc... for example are just as deadly as brakes if the chrome part would fail.

It also is important to keep in mind that the hydrogen embrittlement becomes more of a threat as the amount of chrome applied increases. In a build-up - one in which you are applying layers of chrome - hydrogen becomes trapped between every layer of chrome applied, increasing the chances of hydrogen embrittlement. In a flash chrome situation - one in which a minimal amount of chrome is applied - the probability of this problem occurring becomes less likely because the hydrogen doesn't have as many chances to embed itself within the structure.

I'm not gonna get into a pissing contest back and forth on "WHAT IF's and whats/ whos parts are better then anybody elses'. I use nothing but aircraft quality materials. After all I am a aeronautical engineer by trade.


Its all good info that you posted but its also at the EXTREM end of the chart on what could happen.

All it is , Is a price war between YOU, ME and ED. Ive noticed it in the classified adds and Im sure others have also.



HARLEY DAVIDSON,FORD,GM and every other manufacture out there have powder coated, chrome, zinc plated parts from the factory.

 

Call it what you will. Ed offers many things that I cannot/ will not offer, and if Ed has a problem with me, I hope he knows whatever it is, we can work it out.

I'm sorry if you feel my post is directed at you but my primary concern is safety. There is a known problem with people having fasteners come loose on these brake conversions. When I came out with my brackets I wanted to explore the causes of this problem and address whatever I could.

I think a good portion of these occurrences are from people who simply don't understand how to work with threaded fasteners. I mentioned this to my customers hoping to keep problems under control. I don't want to be associated with anyone who has a failure and I don't want failures associated with braking modifications in general if I'm associated with brake modifications.

I talked to my friend today about powder coating my brackets, imagine my surprise when he mentioned the flex plate incident. After his incident, some one he knew had the same problem, my friend asked him if he had his flex plate powder coated, imagine his surprise when his friend answered him yes. This is the kind of coincidence that makes me believe someone up there is looking out for me, and in exchange I try to look out for others.

What would you do if you were in my shoes? Keep my mouth shut and possibly get others hurt and killed? Or open my mouth and hope someone like you wouldn't get upset? What would your choice be?

If I was extreme, I'd rather err on the extreme side as opposed to erring on the irresponsible side.

Don't sweat it, I'm not going to mess with coatings or platings, period. If you know what you're doing, then everything will be fine. You could use as a selling point that your brackets are coated and plated in a manner that addresses any possible failure due to improper coating procedures. Coming from an aerospace engineer who works with coatings would be a hard act to follow for anyone else who was thinking about offering what you're offering. I don't think I can do it safely so I'm not doing it.

Getting back to Ed, lets say someone like Ed sent me a drawing of a bracket that I never saw before and asked me for a quantity of laser cut parts, I'd give that person a fair price on a quantity. I wouldn't ask what the part was for, and if someone else asked me to cut a quantity of parts that happened to look pretty much identical to what someone like Ed asked me to cut first, I wouldn't do it. Whoever the end user is, he should be able to find someone like Ed pretty easily and I feel the advantages of selling all my quantity through a person like Ed outweighs the profit of the few extra parts that I would sell by some lame attempt at flooding the market. Sure, flooding the market would give me good short term profits but I feel if I take care of an exclusive customer he'll flourish and remember me when he needs more parts which means a better long term benefit for me.

And if I should design a bracket myself that happens to end up looking like the same bracket that I'm selling to an exclusive customer, I'll wad it up and throw it in the trash. If the first time I ever saw a bracket design is when a customer showed it to me, then I don't want to sell brackets myself for that application. I really would rather sell them in quantity, not just brake brackets, but anything cut with a laser and maybe some secondary operations. If a club wanted 20 or 30 laser cut license plates with their logo, I'm their man. If someone invented something and needed a small qty of parts to test the market, I could help them. Selling these brackets in pairs is hopefully just to get me started. I'm in a really good position to get small production runs done at a very competitive price. There's a lot of smart people with ideas in places like TGO who could benefit from what I offer and we both make out.

So, what do you think? I don't want friction between me and any other TGO members. Sorry if I came across too rough.

One other thing- the italics, were you quoting someone, are you a little schizophrenic, or what. I don't understand the effect you were trying to create. Sorry, been a long day......

 

I wasnt trying to bash you but I dont want you to give everyone a bad impression on coatings. Alot of people have a misconception about it and I hear it all the time from people " Well I heard it will weaken my rims. etc.." Like you said Its been a long day..

Theres no hard feeling or anything with anybody. Ive sold Ed quantities of brackets for his kits also and pairs, some for full price some for $20 bucks to people who are on a tight budget.

Ive seen all the other stuff you have done and believe you do great work. I have you added to my friends list on TGO if I ever wanted some other stuff laser cut down the road. Ive used tons of people to check out different quality,work etc. You can never have enough contacts in any market.

schizophrenic, roflmao... No I should have just typed my responses in a diff color. Italic works just as good.

 

Thanks for the complements. Check out my add right under the READ THIS part.

I thought it was the least I could do. If you want me to change it just ask, I'll add a different link or whatever.

I was going to bump it to the top so you could find it easier but then I remembered how hard I work to stay out of trouble and then manage toscrew up anyway at the last minute

 

hehe.. You didnt have to do that.. thumbs up though.

Ya trouble seems to follow me anywhere I go.

You have a PM headed your way also.
You sparked my interested when you said licene plates.

 

I also editied the post to make powder coating seem a little less deadly and tragic. I think we have a comon interest here, maybe you should look over the post that started this link for saftey issues and accuracy and let me know what you think, then maybe the mods can trim all the replies and make it a stickey after it's adjusted. Brake failure due to improper modification can kill people, or worse, it makes states like New Jersey try to outlaw everything including afternarket windshield wipers.

 

For me the consumer I love the competition!! it brings the cost down and keeps ppl from skrewing us over! as far as powder coating these brackets, under heavy breaking would then get hot enough to melt the coating? if thats the case cant you only powercoat the visible part and leave the area in contact with the bolt bare metal? Ive never had any problems with my powder coated parts but i have seen TV shows like OCC and whatnot that have and that 1-3mil does make a spacing/alignment difference. The way I see it is if the part does get hot enough to melt the 1-3mils of powdercoat and mix in a little vibration that bolt will come loose. thats just my thought correct me if im wrong.

 

You would have to get the Brackets and hubs over 400* for the cured powder to melt. CURE temps are 395-400* So melting point is above that.

 

ya I understand that but how hot does it get under heavy loads? I know the pads and rotors see temps well over 400, but how much of that heat transfers to the hardware?

 

That I couldnt tell you.

Figure for that much heat to get to the brackets Its gona have to travle tru the calipers and carriers. FACTORY Z06 calipers are powdercoated red. So if they dont melt then the brackets and spindles and carrier powder wont.

Just for ****s and giggles Im gona fax my supliers and get a TDS sheet and see what a melt point is.

 

I'll bet not much at all. Think about it..the heat would have to travel through the pads and calipers, then through the guide pins (right...) and then through the carriers to get to the brackets. From the other direction, through the rotors, then the hubs and bearings, the spindle and up to the bracket. I really don't see the brackets getting all that hot guys. I don't see the coatings causing that much trouble. The issue will be just keeping the bolts tight enough.

Ed

 

The heat doesn't have to do through all that stuff to get to the brackets, it can go through the air and if the rotor gets hot enough it can transfer as radiant heat.

What is the boiling point of grease and brake fluid?

 

radiant heat is NO where near hot enough to get to +400*

Take a Mr Burner radiant heater on top a propane tank. It takes about 45min or more to even cure a part. and thats in a confined area with no wind. been there done that to prove to someone you better not even try and powder coat a set of Harley jugs and heads and expect it to be done right.

needless to say I ended up doing that job for him.

 

Minimum Operating Temperature: -65°F (-54°C)

Maximum Safe Operating Temperature: +365°F (+185°C)

Viscosity: 820 CentiPoise @ -40°F (-40°C)

Wet boiling point:

DOT 3/4 +347°F (+175°C)

DOT 5.1 Standard +365°F (+185°C)

DOT 5.1 Long Life +424°F (+218°C)

Dry boiling point:

DOT 3/4 +500°F (+260°C)

DOT 5.1 +585°F (+307°C)