I tried to squeeze as much as possible into the title.
I'm starting a round of brake upgrades on my '82 Camaro.

What it has right now:

Stock booster, master cylinder, early model proportioning valve, factory 10.5" front disks with carbon/metallic pads.

10 years ago I upgraded the rear disk to 4th gen LT1 PBR's.
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/brak...akes-dana.html

I always run DOT Auto-X tires on the street. Currently 275-40-17, soon to be 275-35-18.

My plan now is to fix a few nagging issues and install some of the pile of new parts that I've been collecting over the last 10 years. After all that is complete, I'll be installing an, as yet undetermined, front brake upgrade.

EDIT: I've decided on C7-Z51 brakes.

The nagging issues are:
1 the all too common spongy pedal
2 the pedal ends up going almost all the way to the floor
3 the brakes seem to apply very slowly. From the time you first push in the pedal it takes several seconds before you get the full braking power.

Despite these issues the current braking setup stops the car in a very reasonable distance, better than most cars, but I don't have any specific data.

I recently started a thread about the early style proportioning valve that my '82 came with. That thread is here:
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/brak...questions.html

Just this afternoon, I decided that I'm going to abandon the factory proportioning valve and install an adjustable valve and a line lock in its place.
I was going to just add the adjustable proportioning valve in addition to the (disabled) factory valve. But when I dug it out I found the line lock I bought 10 years ago and never got around to installing. since the adjustable proportioning valve goes in the rear brake lines and the line lock in the front, I think it will just be easier to mount both of those to the bracket that, until now, held the factory proportioning valve.

Some will say "what about the other things that the factory proportioning valve does?"
Well on my '82 it does very little. It isn't a combination valve like the later car have. It does not include a "metering Valve." All it is, it a proportioning valve, a distribution block for the front brakes and it has the brake warning switch. so in the end, the only thing I will loose is the brake warning switch, and I can live with that.

I'll also install new factory style master cylinder.

I will have more details soon...

 

What brakes are you using?

 

Have not decided for sure yet.
I've been talking to Scott at BBU and weighing my options.
I'm leaning towards either the 5th gen Camaro 14" brakes or possibly something off of a C7. But I have a lot to do before I get to that point.

First I want to install this pile of parts...The new master cylinder, adjustable proportioning valve and line lock.





After that I have a set of "speed line" 18x9.5" rims that I need to mount. The 2" spacers will need a little "convincing" to fit properly.
Then new tires for the rims. They currently have old worn out 275-40-18 all weather tires. I'll be installing a set of 275-35-18 DOT Auto-x tires. (I'm open to suggestions as to which).

I also need to decide if I need to do something with my brake booster. Although it basically works, I'm concerned that the "slow" brake application issue may have something to do with it.
There is a lot of crud from previous master cylinder failures.
But I have no reason to suspect that the master cylinder I took off today is bad.

 

Here a re links to threads from people who were also replacing their factory proportioning valve with a line lock and an adjustable proportioning valve.

This one includes lots of good pictures:
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/brak...ing-valve.html

This one looks like my same PValve, but no line lock:
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/brak...ml#post5080149

Also from same thread:
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/brak...ml#post5100052

This is a "tech write up" of an adjustable PValve, but no line lock.
https://www.thirdgen.org/propvalve/

This last one includes this picture, which basically sums up what I intend to do, in terms of installing the line lock and adjustable PValve:


Here is the thread I got this picture from:

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/brakes/146828-line-lock-install-questions.html

 

First mock up of adjustable proportioning valve and line lock.

special parts used include:
Allstar Performance 41012 master cylinder adapters (2 sets). One set on MS,
1/2-20 adapter from second set used to help make connection of APV to factory rear line. 9/16-18 adapter from second set was not used.

Allstar performance 50132 pack of 4, 1/2-20 flare unions for 5/16" line. 1 used

Edd-258306 9/16-18 female to 1/2-20 male adapter, so that factory rear brake line does not need to be cut.

The rest is off the shelf 3/16" brake line (5/16-24 tube nuts) and 1/8NTP -> 5/16-24 inverted flare adapters.

The 8" line from the master cylinder to the LL and APV are longer than I would prefer...but it is what the local parts store had.
The same 8" line will go between the APV and factory rear line, with 3 pieces to "adapt" the connection so that the rear brake line does not need to be cut or re-flared.

I'll bend the lines and fit all the parts to the factory PV bracket tomorrow.

 

Before you install that master cylinder look into using the LS1 master cylinder. Might as well replace the Brake Booster while you're there as it's just 4 more bolts and use the LS1 booster. LS1 stuff was thinner and shorter. I have more clearance for camber from my strut mounts now.

I decided to save my money and shy away from that huge C7/fifth gen/CTSV stuff. I think it's a waste putting massive rotors and six piston calipers on these cars. The wheels will lock up sooner and without ABS you just lose control. I have the C5HD rotors and Wilwood FSL 4 piston caliper with the LS1 rears and it works great.

 

I appreciate the advise.
I won't rule out the possibility of going to 4th gen parts later.
But seeing as I have everything I need to hook this up now. So I'm going to go with what I've got.

 

Maybe I missed it, what line lock are you using?

 

It has been sitting in my tool box for 10 years, so I had to go take a look.

It is made by Biondo.

I also noticed that, in the instructions, they show it mounted horizontally. I was concerned that it might need to be vertical in order to bleed properly, but that does not appear to be the case. I'm working on mounting it and the APV today.

 

I don't know anything about that one and I have been curious about installing one. Is that one a switch or a manual?

 

The line lock is electric.
Here is a picture of everything "mocked up."
I decided to mount the line lock to the original prop valve bracket and leave the APV hanging from the brake lines. The APV is a lot lighter and It needed to be up high in order to keep the lines away from the header and to match up with were the original rear brake line went into the factory PV.

I just put a "T" on the bottom of the line lock and only had to bend one of the front lines to get everything to line up. It was reasonably painless.

Now I just need to finish replacing the fuel return line I accidentally kinked, bench bleed the master cylinder, reinstall everything and bleed the whole system. If my brakes work properly at that point, I'll start working on the wiring for the line lock.

 

I will follow along with interest. I also have an 82 (CFI) and have a 1LE front brake upgrade to install. I'm currently collecting parts for an LT1/1LE upgrade to the rears as well.


My prop valve looks just like yours - good to know it is a simple device. I was planning on using a Wilwood adjustable prop valve, so it sounds like the Wilwood is a functional replacement.


On the mushy pedal... I know on older GM cars, residual pressure valves (RPV) were installed in ports of the MC - usually 10 lbs in back for drums and 2 lbs in front for discs. When you look at custom brake installations, you will usually see Wilwood RPVs (10lb red, 2lb blue) in the circuits. These valves are supposed to keep enough pressure in the lines to keep the pads/shoes against the rotor/drum. If the MC you used did not have these valves and you didn't add any, then the issue could be that the pads are pulling away from the rotors. Your initial push on the pedal could be moving the pads to the rotors.


I just redid all of the brake lines on my 69 Camaro and installed a new MC that did not have RPVs (future rear disc upgrade planned) and I had to add the above mentioned Wilwood parts to the system.

 

The LT1 PBR rear disk was a very good upgrade from the iron calipers. It was both effective and cheap. They actually work and my parking brake will even hold the car still at idle. I did a write up of that conversion on my Dana 44 here:

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/brak...akes-dana.html

I've seen those residual pressure valves before. But our cars also have something called, IIRC, a "low drag" caliper that is designed to release completely. The master cylinder has two stages, the first being a high volume low pressure stage to take up the slack, then a low volume high pressure stage to provide braking pressure. I'm not positive, but I suspect that the factory MC would not have much, if any, residual pressure.

 

Good to know I don't need to worry about residual pressure valves.

The rear brake conversion isn't cheap anymore. I have a 9-bolt with 3.23s I am going to install them on. It had the iron calipers stock. First thing I did when I got the rear was to pull them off and throw in the trash.

 

I got mine from HP Salvage in San Antonio. It was about $100+ shipping and included the mounting brackets, rotors, axle brake lines, even pads (used but OK). Pretty much everything needed except the parking brake cables, which are car specific.

Also. speaking of "residual pressure," I had a conversation with someone recently who told me that the rear drum master cylinders do have residual pressure in the back, that will cause accelerated pad wear if used on a rear disk setup.

 

There's a chance that might be true, not sure. I had a drum rear and switched to rear Thirdgen pbr discs on a 9 bolt, I then had a ls1 rear with their discs. I never had a problem with hand turning a rear wheel or a dragging caliper or accelerated pad wear. I have since fine to a fourth gen caliper.

 

I got a little work done this weekend.
I replaced the aluminum section of fuel return line that I had kinked while removing the master cylinder. I used a braided steel line instead. at least not I don't need to worry about it kinking if it ever gets bent a little.

I bench bled the master cylinder, reinstalled the MS, APV, LL and all associates lines, fitting and adapters.

I bled the rear brakes and, while back there, installed 2" spacers and and the 18 x 9.5" Speedline rims that I hope to use. They currently have 275-40-18's that are dry rotted but hold air. They should at least make it to the tire store.

While I was back there I noticed that I was missing a couple of sway bar end link bushings. Eventually those polyurethane bushings always seem to crack, split and fall off. I just got more of the same.

Now I need to bleed the front brakes and see if I can get the adapters and 18x9.5" Speedlines to fit in front. Then new tires, then time for the front brake upgrade. I'll have to make up my mind which brakes to use soon.

 

Good to see you still have the car. Looking forward to seeing the finished product.

 

A quick update, pictures to follow.
I got everything reassembled this week.

The new master cylinder I got ended up being wrong so I returned it. I was not aware of any particular problem with my old rebuilt master cylinder. I was just replacing because I found a new one for $15. I ended up bench bleeding the old one and reusing it.

The line lock is bolted to the old p-valve bracket. It still need to be wired in. The adjustable proportioning valve is just floating on the lines. It is relatively light, so I hope it will be OK like that.

With everything reassembled and about 40 OZ of fluid bled through the system, everything seems to work. I adjusted the proportioning valve to the minimum rear brake pressure. I went for a test drive and the pedal felt more firm, less spongy and does not continue to go down after I stop. I suspect that the spongy feeling was a result of the MC needing a good bench bleed. The braking power felt slightly off from before, but less "off" than I had expected seeing as the APV is set to the minimum setting. I need to find a good place to go dial it in.

While I had the wheels off, I installed the 2" spacers and 'Vette "speedline" wheels in the rear without any issues. The front was another story.

The spacers would bottom out on the end of the hubs, not seating on the disk. A couple of minutes with an angle grinder tapered the end of the hubs so that the spacers would fit. I had to go about 1/4" back and down in to the grease cap at about a 45 degree angle. After that, the front spacers and wheels fit OK.

When the new front disks are installed, there will be 0.300" less space from the disk to the end of the hub. Those hubs should not need grinding.

The wheels 'Vette "Speedline" 18x9.5's currently have old worn out and (1) dry rotted 275-40-18 all weather tires. Driving on them is like driving on ice compared to the Kuhmo Victoracers I was running. Even old and hard, the VictoRacers have 5 times the traction of these tires.

Also the 275-40-18's rub pretty bad when turning. I can turn the wheel three times from lock to lock. 1.5 turns in each direction from center. But with these tires, it will start to rub badly after 1 turn from center, so 1/3 of my steering travel is unusable.

I'll be installing a set of 275-35-18's very soon. Then on the front brake upgrade.
In the mean time, I'll be working on the electrical system. Hooking up the line lock and fabbing a new switch panel and light panel to go under the dash. I'll also be installing a WB O2. Hopefully that will get a few more miles per hour out of the car at the track.

My short term 1/4 mile goal is 11.3@125+. I think all i need to do that is traction. I hope with tuning to get it to an 11 flat.

 

Pics of front spindle before modification, after modification and with spacer installed.

 

After talking to Scott at BigBrakeUpgrade.com, I'm pretty settled on going with the C7-Z51 setup. It is a 4 piston caliper on a 13.6" rotor. I like this setup because it can use off-the-shelf pads and rotors without modification.

It is the largest 4 piston setup that I have found that can use off-the-shelf pads and rotors. The calipers do need some machining to fit, but calipers are not "wear" items like pads and rotors.

I'm also going to go with the Set3 (1LE) bearing mod. I figure the wheel bearing is likely to be the next part to go when I start flogging these with DOT race tires.

Looking down stream from there...I wonder what will break next. Will it start tearing the the cross member loose? Maybe opening up the bolt holes that hold the A arm to the cross member? But I've done that before and bolt holes are already reinforced. Perhaps I'll have trouble keeping the caster camber plates in place.

Yep, some sort of cross member or strut tower damage is what I expect. Does it seem off that the prospect of braking my cross member makes me smile?

 

There is another member that is big on the brake board and he steered me to a C5HD rotor and Wilwood 4 piston FSL calipers. I love them. I think he is 87iroc350? I'll check.

 

I considered going that route. In the end I decided that the C7 setup would be better for me because calipers, pads and rotors will be available at most parts stores...eventually.

It is for a similar reason that I swapped out my perfectly good Mallory Uni-Lite distributor for a small cap HEI. I got tired of special ordering caps and rotors.

 

Having driven the car around a little more since putting the brakes back together, I'm convinced that the "mushy" pedal was a result of an improperly bled master cylinder.

It now has a considerably less "mushy" feel and, besides adding the APV and LL, all I did is bleed it. I think that it was the bench bleeding of the master cylinder that did the trick. It no longer slowly sinks after being applied either.

I do have another problem though. I think that my booster leaks. When I press the brakes down, my electric vacuum pump runs constantly, until I release the brakes again. If I don't use the brakes, the electric vacuum pump will come on for a few seconds every minute or so.

I have a few other things in my vacuum setup that I may bypass, just to make sure. I have manifold vacuum plumbed in so that if the electric pump fails I still have something. I also have a vacuum reservoir installed, so that I will have enough vacuum for consecutive applications.

 

Now I'm committed. I bought the C7 Z51 calipers today.
They are on their way to Scott at BigBrakeUpgrade for machining.

 

The calipers are ready and the last of the brake parts have been ordered.

Going with C7 Z-51 4 piston calipers with 13.6" disks
Should have some more progress soon...

 

Parts arrived fro BigBrakeUpgrade.com today.
They look nice. I have the assembled hubs, caliper and disks, so I'm just about ready to start "phase 2" of this project.

I finished wiring up the line lock and am almost finished with a light panel with low fuel pressure, shift light and secondary fuel pump activation lights. Once I have that done, I'll probably drive it around for a couple of days, then get started on the brakes Sunday.

 

This is one of my next projects for my 82. I still have stock discs and drums but the previous owner installed a vacuum canister when he put the 383 build in it. I don't have any of the mushy pedal issues but just the opposite, the pedal has no play whatsoever and is very hard. The car seems to stop fine but just doesn't feel right. Looking forward to seeing your end results.

 

How much vacuum does your engine draw at idle?

I have a vacuum canister and an electric vacuum pump as well.

While the electric vacuum pump said I should completely disconnect the intake vacuum, I am still using it in addition. When I go back and forth between the gas and brake several times quickly, the electric pump can't keep up, but then I can take advantage of the vacuum that engine braking supplies.

When I've been cruising for a while and there is very little engine vacuum (big cam) the electric pump makes sure I have plenty of boost.

It works well for me.

 

I'll be testing the idle vacuum this weekend. The master cylinder looks fairly new and was probably never bench bled so I'm hoping when I do that, the brakes won't be so stiff.

 

New pile of parts to install.
I'll be picking up ball joints and a ball joint press tomorrow.

 

With the preassembled hubs from BBU, it was quick and easy.
I got the 1LE bearings and my old SS lines even fit the new C7 calipers.
Should be finishing up tomorrow. I should have some results to report by this weekend...

 

Went for the first test drive with the new front brakes today.
Scott at BBU.com did a nice job on the partial kit I got from him. It went right together. It was super easy.

Bleeding went smoothly once I realized that I had two sets of bleeder screws on each caliper. In retrospect, it seems pretty obvious.

I took it fairly easy as I want to give the (lightly) used pads time to seat on the new rotors. But it is obvious that I get a lot more result for a lot less pedal effort.

It does seem to pull to one side a little, but there are about 6 possible reasons for that, half of which have nothing to do with the brakes. I'm very happy with the outcome so far.

Before and after pics attached. Unfortunately they are upside down and sideways...But they appear right side up when viewed full screen in my browser.

 

One interesting phenomenon I noticed is that, after getting back from my test drive, the outer rotors were too hot to touch, but the inner or hub of the 2 piece rotor was barely warm. It seems that the 2 piece rotor construction does a lot to isolate the heat and keep it away from the wheel and bearings.

Also, now that it looks like I'll be keeping these wheels for a little while, some new tires are in order.

 

The brakes really fill that wheel space up, looks good.

 

Thanks, those factory brakes in the 18's really did look puny.

 

After using the new brakes a little, the biggest difference I've noticed is the speed with which they can be applied. Yes it takes a lot less pedal effort to get the same braking result. But with the factory calipers, it would take a while for them to start to bite. The "bite" with these is much more immediate. I'll have to wait until I have good race tires installed to test the 60-0 times. I'm sure they will be good, but I think that more than half of the improvement will come from how much faster the brakes can be applied.

Of course, the down side of that is that it will probably be a lot easier to lock them up, so I'll have to be more careful using them.