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Tech / General EngineIs your car making a strange sound or won't start? Thinking of adding power with a new combination? Need other technical information or engine specific advice? Don't see another board for your problem? Post it here!
So tonight i got the water pump off my engine. Been leaking and just needs to be replaced. So my concern is with the crank pulley, there is a rubber seal or O-ring under it, between the pulley and damper. It is quite a thick seal, and it had some chunks missing out of it......not sure if oil is leaking out of it, i would think not, just cannot happen. So i am wondering if i should or could, replace this seal? (While i have everything apart). I am sure the pulley will come off fairly easy, with those 3 bolts holding it to the damper. But what does this seal do? Im sure the damper is ok, but need the tool to pull that and install it.
88 IROC 350 tpi, pushing 90k miles.......Thanks!
Ok, got some pics, not the best. There may be more than 2 sections of the ring missing. What does that ring do? Just part of the installation of the damper?
That's not a "seal". That rubber ring is the blob of spooge that loosely associates the inertia ring, which is the outer part of the crank damper with the balance holes drilled in it, to the center part of it that bolts to the crank and that the pulley bolts to. There's a large bolt in the center of it holding it to the crank. The rubber is completely trashed.
You need a new crank damper. RIGHT NOW, before it starts doing something stoooopid, like rubbing against the timing cover and wearing a hole in it.
Auto parts stores "rent" a puller/pusher set for free. USE IT. Don't try to do the job without it.
Whenever I have to remove the harmonic damper on an engine with thousands of miles on it , especially on a GM smallblock that's SO easy to remove the timing cover , I do just that , pull the cover to inspect(and likely end up replacing) the timing chain & gears , with of course the new front seal and gaskets to complete the job .
Low mileage engine ? Of course I only replace what's bad with no such "fishing expeditions" . But anything that's been together since Regan was President ? Oh yea , I have a good look around in whatever I take apart , wouldn't it just SUCK to loose a timing chain a month after going to the trouble of taking 90% of the stuff off to do the job with your harmonic damper replacement ?
That's not a "seal". That rubber ring is the blob of spooge that loosely associates the inertia ring, which is the outer part of the crank damper with the balance holes drilled in it, to the center part of it that bolts to the crank and that the pulley bolts to. There's a large bolt in the center of it holding it to the crank. The rubber is completely trashed.
You need a new crank damper. RIGHT NOW, before it starts doing something stoooopid, like rubbing against the timing cover and wearing a hole in it.
Auto parts stores "rent" a puller/pusher set for free. USE IT. Don't try to do the job without it.
Why do i need a completely new damper? can't i just pull it off, and replace the blob of spooge? dampers dont go bad, its just a hunk of metal that has been balanced. i have no vibrations, and all the front running gear rolls smooth. Dont the new dampers come without the spooge?
Engine is pushing 90k miles, runs good but has been pushed. Just dont want to put alot of effort into it now, cuz it could grenade someday. Then replace everything.
Why do i need a completely new damper? can't i just pull it off, and replace the blob of spooge? dampers dont go bad, its just a hunk of metal that has been balanced. i have no vibrations, and all the front running gear rolls smooth. Dont the new dampers come without the spooge?
Engine is pushing 90k miles, runs good but has been pushed. Just dont want to put alot of effort into it now, cuz it could grenade someday. Then replace everything.
No, you can't. It's not sealant, it's not anything serviceable. The damper is 2 pieces bonded together; they're coming apart. Must be replaced.
Why do i need a completely new damper? can't i just pull it off, and replace the blob of spooge? dampers dont go bad, its just a hunk of metal that has been balanced. i have no vibrations, and all the front running gear rolls smooth. Dont the new dampers come without the spooge?
Engine is pushing 90k miles, runs good but has been pushed. Just dont want to put alot of effort into it now, cuz it could grenade someday. Then replace everything.
That damper MUST be replaced. Like @NowhereFast said, it is 2 pieces bonded together, and NO you can't "FIX" it by squeezing a little Permatex in those places that it is missing. If you don't replace it, then expect the outer ring to become fully unbonded and fly through your hood like a rocket. I hope I'm not the guy it hits on the way down.
What a bunch of bull! Clean it up real good with Orange Clean and Oxyclean, rinse with KABOOM! and squirt some gasket glue in there. It'll be good as new!
I'm kidding. Throw that damper away, and pick up a new one. $27 at Rock Auto.
[QUOTE=NoEmissions84TA;6229431]That damper MUST be replaced. Like @NowhereFast said, it is 2 pieces bonded together, and NO you can't "FIX" it by squeezing a little Permatex in those places that it is missing. If you don't replace it, then expect the outer ring to become fully unbonded and fly through your hood like a rocket. I hope I'm not the guy it hits on the way down.
Here you go. All narrowed down. The cheapest is $39.99
Ok, i get it. Just want to make sure i am doing the right thing. I will have to rent the puller. So does NAPA stock these dampers? Kinda want to spend my $$ local, and not online.
So does NAPA stock these dampers? Kinda want to spend my $$ local, and not online.
Even if NAPA does stock it , check carefully who the actual manufacturer is . In a LOT of instances the big brand name part and the lower dollar on line part are made right next to each other in the same factory and it's the box that it goes in that determines the price . I learned that lesson when the "A/C Delco" and "Everco" heater control valves I bought had the exact same made in Mexico stickers on them even though the supposed "A/C Delco" part cost 4X what the "Everco" part did , and of course came in a much prettier box
So i got the 3 bolts off the crank pulley, but the pulley seems to be stuck on to the damper. So how does that come off? I wrapped on it a few times with a light hammer, but it didnt move. Does the crank center bolt also hold the pulley on? Shop manual doesnt really specify.........
Remove the center bolt and wrap on the side of the pulley with a dead blow hammer.
Btw you might want to get a balancer install tool. Some people beat them back on but that’s a way to knock out your main thrust bearings.
Remove the center bolt and wrap on the side of the pulley with a dead blow hammer.
Btw you might want to get a balancer install tool. Some people beat them back on but that’s a way to knock out your main thrust bearings.
I did put a ratchet on the center bolt, but the crank wanted to rotate while loosening, so i backed off. Is it ok to put an impact wrench on the center bolt?
I also put some penetrant spray on things......
And yes i will get the balancer install/removal tool.
If you can get the impact wrench on it squarely, then go for it. Don't set it on max to start with. And do not install the new damper with the impact.
Now is also the time to change your timing cover seal. Don't forget to oil it.
Here is a tip. When installing the new damper, use anti-seize on the crank snout, and put a little Permatex (about a 1/2" line from the tube) about 1" inside the damper's hub all the way around the inner circumference. The keyway groove in the damper's hub can sometimes leak oil out from behind your crank pulley. The Permatex will roll along as you press the damper on and create a beautiful ring all the way around. You can then use a finger to smooth it a little if you wish.
Last edited by NoEmissions84TA; Jun 17, 2018 at 10:07 PM.
Impact is the way to get that bolt out. You can either use an actual impact gun, or, use a REAL LONG breaker bar and a 5/8" impact socket. Put a little bit of tension on the bar in the "off" direction, and whap it real good with a hammer. Use the mass of the crank (inertia) in your favor.
Even better, you might consider this a golden opportunity to buy a battery-powered impact gun, and who doesn't like adding tools to their collection... those are INCREDIBLY handy to have, especially if you don't already have an air compressor. For around $200 you can have something that will pay for itself many times over if you do very much work on your car at all. And who knows what your time is worth; instead of struggling with trying to get stuck bolts loose, or on how to get some force on something while laying upside-down in some awkward position, you just squeeze the trigger. Get a ½" drive one, not 3/8"; and don't buy a tool just because it's cheeeep, then realize it's underpowered, or you have to buy extra $$$ batteries $$$ or whatever.
If you can get the impact wrench on it squarely, then go for it. Don't set it on max to start with. And do not install the new damper with the impact.
Now is also the time to change your timing cover seal. Don't forget to oil it.
Here is a tip. When installing the new damper, use anti-seize on the crank snout, and put a little Permatex (about a 1/2" line from the tube) about 1" inside the damper's hub all the way around the inner circumference. The keyway groove in the damper's hub can sometimes leak oil out from behind your crank pulley. The Permatex will roll along as you press the damper on and create a beautiful ring all the way around. You can then use a finger to smooth it a little if you wish.
Thanks for all the tips, keep them coming. Got the bolt out tonight. Used my 3/8" air ratchet. Its not that powerful, but i had to hammer on it a little, and it came right out. And thus of course the pulley popped right off easy. Shop manual didnt really give me the detail that i wanted, sort of indicated that the pulley should come off first, then the center bolt. Next i need the puller, and start lining up some new parts of course.
Even better, you might consider this a golden opportunity to buy a battery-powered impact gun, and who doesn't like adding tools to their collection... those are INCREDIBLY handy to have, especially if you don't already have an air compressor. For around $200 you can have something that will pay for itself many times over if you do very much work on your car at all. And who knows what your time is worth; instead of struggling with trying to get stuck bolts loose, or on how to get some force on something while laying upside-down in some awkward position, you just squeeze the trigger. Get a ½" drive one, not 3/8"; and don't buy a tool just because it's cheeeep, then realize it's underpowered, or you have to buy extra $$$ batteries $$$ or whatever.
New tools would be nice, but i am good for now. I have 175psi air comp, pro model craftsmen, and some ok air tools. Tonight i just found out my radiator is junk, had it looked at by a repair shop, they told me to not bother putting it back in car. I had it re-tanked once before, but the core is still original. just time for an upgrade.....
Iirc the pan seal lip on the timing cover hits the block. Bye trimming the timing cover this allows movement needed to put the timing cover back on without dropping the pan.a small dab of rtv is needed soon reassembly.
Here is a tip. When installing the new damper, use anti-seize on the crank snout, and put a little Permatex (about a 1/2" line from the tube) about 1" inside the damper's hub all the way around the inner circumference. The keyway groove in the damper's hub can sometimes leak oil out from behind your crank pulley. The Permatex will roll along as you press the damper on and create a beautiful ring all the way around. You can then use a finger to smooth it a little if you wish.
So, can you explain this business a little better? I can handle putting a little anti-seize on the crank snout. But what Permatex are you talking about? Something special? where is 1/2" from the tube? what about the OD of the new damper? put anything on that, so it can push in and seal against the timing cover seal?
Parts should be in this weds, and i got the installer tool. Still need to source a new radiator. Thanks!
Sure, I can clarify.
A light coat of anti seize on the crank's snout (sticking out of the timing cover, where the 2 woodruff keys are) all the way around.
Squeeze out about a 1/2" long blob of Permatex on the end of your finger.
Apply it to the inside diameter of the damper's hub (end that goes on first) about 1" in all the way around the inner circumference. Your finger will cross the keyway groove.
Light coat of oil on the seal's lips and wipe the outer diameter of the hub (where the seal rides).
Now install with the puller/installer tool. Stop once the hub goes inside the seal to make sure the lips are not folded in.
If OK, continue.
As the damper is pressed on, the Permatex will roll along the inside of the damper's hub, creating a seal so that oil can not follow that keyway groove and leak out from behind your crank pulley.
I prefer the Black Max Oil Resistance Permatex.
Drawn in BLUE on the picture, the Permatex rolls into a bead here.
Last edited by NoEmissions84TA; Jun 24, 2018 at 08:33 PM.
Ok, I think i got it now!! thanks much. Got a call from NAPA, my parts are in, will pick them up after work. So i have found this tube of Permatex Ultra Black, gasket maker, is this the same thing you are referring to? I also have some Loctite 598 Black high performance gasket maker. Looking forward to getting this back together!
New damper is on!! woohoo!! step 1 of many!! i did put in a new oil seal of course......went on pretty good, check out my picture. So now my next question, is what kind of bolt torque should i use on the center bolt? and/also the 3 bolts for the crank pulley? my shop manual seems to not tell me!
Thanks again all.....
Balancer bolt 75-85ft lbs. the pulley bolts I would guess 20 but just tighten them down it’s not a critical engine component to have torqued.
Ok, sounds good to me. Im sure you know this, but the center bolt has a very large thick washer under it, and it holds the pulley down as well. So i have to start the 3 bolts for the pulley, then lock the center bolt down, then lastly snug up the 3 pulley bolts. and i will likely use a little anti-seize on all the bolts.
Good job. See how the Permatex created that seal? That is exactly what I was talking about.
I am saving your picture as an example to show others doing this job in the future.
You can use anti-seize on those bolts, but I usually use Blue Loctite, just so they can't vibrate loose.
Good job. See how the Permatex created that seal? That is exactly what I was talking about.
I am saving your picture as an example to show others doing this job in the future.
You can use anti-seize on those bolts, but I usually use Blue Loctite, just so they can't vibrate loose.
Yup, i think it worked out good. I see now what the intent of it was now. I have a better picture, that shows more of a closeup of the install, if you want it.
Tonight i put the crank pulley on, and started looking at the water pump. Only get a little bit of time to work on it, ya know what i mean!
One Man's opinion only ;
