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Tech / General EngineIs your car making a strange sound or won't start? Thinking of adding power with a new combination? Need other technical information or engine specific advice? Don't see another board for your problem? Post it here!
So I was browsing different markets for a parts car to fix some front end damage done to my summer daily driver 92RS, but what I ended up getting was a parts car with potential. I happened to find a 92 RS T-Top Car w/ a decent condition front clip. It was non-running, sitting on a flat and wasting away at a Junkyard in Toledo. When going to give it the once over I found the car to be complete with original non-leaking T-Tops, decent T-Top Headliner, complete red interior, slightly cracked dash and okay condition undercarriage. The car was hooked up to a Jump-Starter and I saw the engine rotate, $1K was their asking price, I bought the car for $800.
Because this car has sat for an unknown amount of time I've taken a page as they say, from a book written by Supreme Member @Schurkey and will be using the write up he posted on a my Budget Friendly Bolt On MOD's for the L03 thread to establish the foundation for a solid transformation! This will be the parent thread, any related threads will be posted or mentioned in an update to this thread in the form of a hyperlink. Thank you!
Last edited by 92RS-HeritageEd; 03-18-2019 at 09:11 PM.
From a performance-to-dollar standpoint, the FIRST thing to do is to assure that all the horses that GM installed are still there.
In approximate, sorta-kinda order of importance:
1. Assure that the engine is running properly--all "tune-up" items are in good condition.
Distributor in good condition
Pickup coil
Module
Distributor wiring harness including capacitor if used
Distributor cap and rotor
ECM controls timing as intended, includes setting the initial timing appropriately.
Ignition coil in usable condition. No internal damage to insulation
Spark plugs reasonably fresh and not fouled with oil or gasoline
Spark plug (and coil) wires reasonably fresh, no "corona" light-show, no excess resistance, no burnt ends
Fuel pressure adequate
Fuel filter not restrictive
Air filter adequate
OEM air cleaner housing with the hot-air intake vacuum hose disabled in warm weather, and the cold-air ducting in place.
Cranking compression test--cylinder pressure reasonably equal and adequate
Cylinder balance test reasonably even individually, and upper/lower planes of the intake manifold equal.
EGR functions properly (reduces likelyhood of detonation and engine damage)
PCV functions properly (extends oil and bearing life)
Fuel tank venting works OK, including charcoal canister and canister filter. Cuts emissions, doesn't hurt horsepower, assures no over- or under-pressure of the tank which can affect fuel pressure.
AIR system (if used) functioning properly. Prevents backfire on deceleration, catalyst melt-down
Knock sensor NOT causing excess timing retard (sensor not falsely triggering due to excess engine mechanical noise)
2. Starting/charging power team working acceptably
Alternator charges at ~14.2 V (somewhere between 13.5 and 15.5, I prefer somewhere between those two extremes.)
Battery holds a charge
No excess voltage drop from alternator to battery
No excess voltage drop from battery to starter
No excess voltage drop from battery to passenger compartment
No excess voltage drop from battery to fuel pump
No excess voltage drop from battery to ignition
No excess current draw when starter is cranking
Starter cranks acceptably fast
ECM is properly grounded
3. No active or pending codes stored in computer.
4. Replace pellet-style catalyst(s) with monolithic "high flow" aftermarket catalyst(s) It's extremely unlikely that the original catalyst is still healthy; and the aftermarket cats flow more.
5. Exhaust system has no damage.
6. Exhaust pipes replaced with mandrel-bent tubing, preferably of somewhat larger diameter.
7. Cooling system maintains reasonable engine temperature, no coolant loss, especially:
Coolant loss into combustion chamber
Coolant loss into oil
No bloated (ready-to-burst) coolant hoses
8. Acceptably low engine oil loss, especially
Oil loss into the combustion chamber Oil in chamber promotes detonation and plug fouling
Oil loss into the exhaust port
AFTER you have CONFIRMED that all eight cylinders are making the power they're supposed to, you could move along to chassis verification. Your engine is making power, but you need to assure it's not being unreasonably robbed by the chassis.
Low-drag front calipers (if used) are working properly
Low drag master cylinder (if used) working properly (doesn't have low brake pedal)
2. Wheel alignment OK. Excess toe can cut fuel economy and harm performance (makes the steering squirrely, too.) Includes "thrust" alignment at rear
3. Wheel bearings have usable grease, adjusted properly.
4. Steering/suspension linkage and bushings in good condition
5. Ride height acceptable, prevents U-joint binding
6. Tires inflated
7. Torque converter OK. Free-wheeling stator one-way clutch kills low-speed acceleration. Seized stator one-way clutch kills high-speed power.
8. Transmission actually has all the gears it's supposed to
- Tried to jump start car > Battery Dead/Defective > Replaced Battery > Car Starts
Week # 2 (Week Of Mar 7, 2019)
- Tried to move car from the street to the driveway > When placed in gear car bogs down / stalls > Made it into the partially into the driveway
> Pushed it the rest of the way.
- Completed walk around > Found IAT disconnected > a few disconnected Vac Lines > Missing Battery Junction Box > Missing Air Cleaner Filter > Pre-Cut Fuel Panel access hole > Cat-Delete > Ignition Cylinder replaced > VATs Bypass completed > evidence of a removed aftermarket alarm. No apparent fornication to the ECM wire harness.
- Reconnected IAT & Vac Lines > installed Air Cleaner Filter > Started Car > Ran rough > RPM's surging > Bogging down and stalling in idle. When pressing the accelerator it was like it was starving for fuel.
Week # 3 (Week Of Mar 14, 2019)
- Disconnected battery > Swapped FP's > Installed Battery Junction Box > NO Start.
- Ripped hair out chasing a Fuel System Issue > Replaced connector to OPS > Found out why they say If it isn't broke don't fix it > Removed Battery Junction Box & Put it back as it was > Car Started. Thanks to @Tuned Performance.
- Flushed Coolant > Found NO T-STAT > Refilled with 50/50 and installed 180 Degree T-Stat > Started Car > Temp gauge reached 3rd line > No Cooling Fan > Shut Car Off.
- No Motor Knock or Tick > Noticed surging RPM's @ idle > Drops to about 500PM and struggles to stay running.
- Checked for correct ECM/PROM Combo > 8746 marked AXKT > Found Hypertech ThermoMaster 122362 Chip (Ironic, my other car came with one too! They must have been popular in the L03 TBI community.)
Purchased: New ACDelco Plugs & Jegs 8MM Wires, MSD Cap & Rotor, & Bosch/Actron Fuel Pressure Test Kit. STP 5Qt High Mileage Oil Change kit, Pulled a GM Stamped ACDelco ICM & some other compatible ICM from a local JY as spares.
Plans for Week # 4 will include the full tune up, oil change and start.
Last edited by 92RS-HeritageEd; 03-17-2019 at 08:10 PM.
The fan kicks on at a high temperature 226f. A common failure is the connector at the cylinder head temp switch gets hot and brakes off. A sw555 temp switch if you need a new switch comes on at 210 Iirc.
great find on the car congrats.
The week of routine maintenance, or so I thought. Tried taking what I thought was the smart route replacing plug/wire for plug/wire one at a time. That worked very well on #1,/ #3 but #5 and #7 were a bit tougher plug wise. I would describe my experience with plugs #2, #4, #6, #8 but the language i'd used would get me banned. Plugs & wires are changed now so all's well that ends well.
* Noticed SLOW cranking at last attempt to start w/ fully charged battery > Read up on TGO / Read through GMSM > Found connections at the starter loose > Removed / Inspected / Cleaned / Reinstalled while changing the plugs. (We'll see if this helps.)
Up next... new cap/rotor, pcv valve and ICM inspection (removing ICM cleaning the ICM contacts, mounting holes and surfaces, applying new thermal paste and reinstalling). Might replace the pickup coil if it looks like a pos... also planning on cleaning the IAC. Wondering if I install my new Actron Fuel Pressure Adapter Fitting at the TBI unit can I leave it there? We'll see...
Don’t leave the adapter there permanently. This could be a leak source and point of a fire.
Really? Why would this schrader valve and fitting be any more likely to leak and cause a fire than say a similar valve on a fuel rail in a multi point system?
I ask, because I had planned to leave mine in place.
I have seen testers leak with the adapter. Just a risk I wouldn’t want to take. Just my two cents
on tpi to get a gauge to work the schrader valve gets removed so if the gauge leaks not that good.
No real progress today since I got off late. I ran to the parts store to have some spare parts tested just to get out. Among the tested were 3 JY pull ICM's. One of which passed in-store testing last season and has sat in the center console since... Today... All 3 failed the WELLS machine testing. The guy doing the testing stated "you're supposed to replace the pick-up coil & ICM at the same time" told me if my car is eating ICM's (neither car is) to check/replace the pick-up coil. I've read so much here on TGO about the unreliability of the in-store testing but my goodness there should be a easy diy or reliable in-store ICM test.
I will not be leaving the Pressure Tester Adapter in place, but this makes me wonder how people safely install fuel pressure gauges in their cars...
Some progress made, grounding the FS worked to activate the cooling fan so that's good. Also got everything buttoned back up from Plugs/Wires and triple checked connections. Existing Cap/Rotor looked new and coil was already replaced, ICM & pick-up coil even "looked" clean and free of corrosion or surface rust.
- Attempted Start > Better Crank Speed > Car Started but ran with low and unstable idle
This left me to start an Idle Troubleshooting thread so we'll see what comes of that. This is holding up troubleshooting the cooling fan, it won't idle stable long enough to reach operating temp so I know for sure if it's the switch. Heading to install the fuel pressure test adapter.
UPDATE: Fuel Line disco was fine, getting this adapter in there to test fuel pressure is a fail... UPDATE-2-UPDATE: Reconnected fuel line at TBI, used another adapter in place of the (Non-Existent) fuel filter to test fuel pressure...fuel pressure never dropped below 12/13psi. I also find it strange that with the adapter in place of the (Non-Existent) fuel filter it's idling long enough to reach operating temp, with less "hunting". Also found out by moving the temp gauge sensor wire off of the #1 sp wire... gauge works as normal, a bonus is my cooling fan did come on in line w/ the gauge reading of just past the 220 mark!
Now onto the the 1500/2K RPM at idle and the steam or smoke that seemed to appear only in/at the driver side manifold area., it was like I thought could hear the sizzle of liquid on metal.. shut her off to avoid a fire. EDIT: Rechecked everything... no visible leaks, besides the power steering pump. No fuel from rear of TBI or fuel lines, no oil on the ground.
Final update for today: Started > Tried AC for kicks > fan cam on as it should and i got a bit of cool air :-) nice. I finally took a video I could post. That's all for tonight.
Last edited by 92RS-HeritageEd; 03-23-2019 at 07:03 PM.
Through HELL & HIGH WATER.... She's off jack stands and made it up the street and back. A few stalls but no cut-off's, some surging idle when in Open Loop once in closed loop it idled around 1K-1100 RPM's. Making forward progress!
Tried driving a bit more today, took about 4 laps around the block. Didn't have a passenger, couldn't data-log. I'll say she sure felt wimpy. No power on acceleration, significant bogging down when decelerating, very high shift points and she only died on me at the foot of my driveway while backing in, as I was to slow on tapping the gas. All-In-All i'm pleased, but I'll be a happy ThirdGen'er once all the bugs are worked out.
Today was a stressful day w/ traffic court, so to de-stress I went to a local jy, I picked up the following...
- Throttle Body (Complete w/ IAC & TPS *Idle Set Screw still capped) - Pulled from 91 Caprice w/ L03
- Injector pod w/ Injectors - Pulled from 91 S10
- ECM 16136965 AXDA PROM - Pulled from GM Car w/ 350 TBI
- (4) MAP Sensors
- AC Delete Bracket
Planning to rebuild the TBI & do Ultimate TBI Mods. Hope the Injectors are compatible, they have the same color stems on the connector. I'm shelving the ECM, just in case I do a 350 swap in one of my ThirdGen's. If you need the AC delete bracket PM me, I don't need it but couldn't pass it up...
Today was a stressful day w/ traffic court, so to de-stress I went to a local jy, I picked up the following...
- Throttle Body (Complete w/ IAC & TPS *Idle Set Screw still capped) - Pulled from 91 Caprice w/ L03
- Injector pod w/ Injectors - Pulled from 91 S10
- ECM 16136965 AXDA PROM - Pulled from GM Car w/ 350 TBI
- (4) MAP Sensors
- AC Delete Bracket
Planning to rebuild the TBI & do Ultimate TBI Mods. Hope the Injectors are compatible, they have the same color stems on the connector. I'm shelving the ECM, just in case I do a 350 swap in one of my ThirdGen's. If you need the AC delete bracket PM me, I don't need it but couldn't pass it up...
That's a nice haul.
It's a rare day at the local pick & pulls here that I can find usable parts for T/A.
Found out that my injectors on this car are untraceable aftermarket units. It seems the P.O thought they could make a street beast by tossing in new injectors, cranking the idle set screw to the maxx, adding a HyperTech Chip and straight piping it. Thanks to the help I received with datalogging hopefully the issue has been identified but more testing to come.
My father & I are also heading back to the jy bright & early for the last day of their 50% off sale. I'm looking to ****** up a Power Steering pump, 2-Wire Alternator Connector, maybe another complete TBI or two, a few ICM's and anything else I can find that's 305/350 interchangeable.
Tons of Idle Troubleshooting and datalogging has led to tremendous forward progress. Finally she can be taken on trips through the neighborhood w/out stalling when placed in gear or coming to a stop. So now if I want to cruise I can at least pull it forward and bring out my other ThirdGen until i'm comfy taking this one further than around the block. Still need to work through O2 Sensor replacement, determining why timing has to be at minimum 6* advance to even run, weak crank signal? and why my MAP voltage is about twice what it should be at idle but I can driver her. Makes me wish maintenance and mod record keeping was a requirement so new owners knew what they're getting into. Soon i'd like to put her back up on jstands and clean up the undercarriage, and do this rear break line repair but for now it's one step at a time.
Last edited by 92RS-HeritageEd; 04-15-2019 at 07:49 PM.
From the looks of it someones had the valve covers off. Wonder if these gaskets are original, see that melted portion? I've never taken a valve cover off before, I should have payed more attention at the jy today when I did my test run. I also picked up another complete very clean 350 TBI & some new blue valve cover gaskets, and a Amazon Tablet they had on the buck shelf. I sooooo couldn't resist wasting the $20.
I wish I knew how to identify original Rockers, etc...
Last edited by 92RS-HeritageEd; 04-20-2019 at 04:19 PM.
With all the direction I've been given the combination of symptoms could be timing chain related, since base timing jumps w/ the est disconnected. Didn't really want to dive into that uneducated, can anyone help me understand a Single Vs Double Roller timing chain, and should one be used over the other? Which came stock on L03?
You need to use your stock timing cover. The pointer is spot welded on at 12 o’clock.
have you completed the compression test ?
Have you checked for chain slack ?
You need to use your stock timing cover. The pointer is spot welded on at 12 o’clock.
have you completed the compression test ?
Have you checked for chain slack ?
Have you completed the compression test? No, the reading materials provided to me in another thread implied the readings could be impacted by the timing chain being to worn. Have you checked for chain slack? Haven't taken it apart yet, wasn't "slack" or some issue implied by the base timing jumping from 0* up to 6* or so and back to 0* with the est wire disconnected?
880 is the block casting number. The block identification is behind the drivers side head it will say 5.0l or 5.7l.
There is also a stamped vin number and block suffix on the block under the passengers side head in the front.
Last edited by Tuned Performance; 04-27-2019 at 05:58 PM.
880 is the block casting number. The block identification is behind the drivers side head it will say 5.0l or 5.7l.
There is also a stamped vin number and block suffix on the block under the passengers side head in the front.
There's absolutely no way I can see the block identification behind the drivers side head. Also can't see a stamped vin number and block suffix on the block under the passengers side head because of the AC/Smog equipment and bracket. I did find something interesting online... I see myself sliding under my other 92 in the morning to see if the 3 digit casting matches.
But it's implied on another site that 880 blocks were used in marine applications for a 5.0L/305
96-12 8 bolt intake.10 bolt timing cover.200HP & 230HP 5.0L 305CID V- 8, 880 & 878 https://www.perfprotech.com/remanufa.../category/2586
Last edited by 92RS-HeritageEd; 04-28-2019 at 10:40 PM.
Did GM use the same block for the 305 & 350 but different casting numbers based on size? Anyone have any links related to the 3 digit number cast into the engine block right below the driverside head?
Update: My main 92RS has 627 cast on both sides of the engine block, near the starter and oil filter while the project car has 878...
14093(627) Small Block V8 1987-1991 305, 2 bolt, roller cam, 1-piece rear seal
10243(878) Small Block V8 1996-1997 305, 2-bolt, Vortec truck, roller cam, 1-piece rear seal
This is some really conflicting information lol.
Last edited by 92RS-HeritageEd; 04-29-2019 at 09:03 AM.
You should be able to get your phone in a position behind the drivers head to take a pic of the casting number. This will give a more definitive answer. May have to reach back there with a toothbrush or something of that nature to clean it off so that it’s legible.
Took the day off work, made a spur of the moment JY trip which yielded a fairly nice haul... all for $24.99
- Reman Power Steering Pump w/ Fittings and Lines
- Clean Fuel Filter w/ fitting & 3in line from each side
- 350 Injector Pod w/ Injectors
- Aftermarket ICM
- 1 Bottle of STP Oil Treatment
I'm trying not to bail on this project but the setbacks are discouraging. Making matters worse, today i started hearing this sound that I say sounds like bearings clanking around after letting it warm w/out a peep. It's coming from the front most area of the engine bay and when touching the water pump it's like I can feel taps. I turn the car off, remove the serp belt & spin water pump by hand but nothing. I figured I'm not spinning it fast enough by hand to recreate the sound and go back to start the car and the starter said no sir but I also didn't hear the concerning noise either. This starter heat-soak or it being on its last leg is KILLING me. On top of that my ALDL cable took a crap.
Update: The ALDL cable thing was driver related, I guess that's good news lol
Last edited by 92RS-HeritageEd; 05-13-2019 at 07:25 PM.
Replaced the main battery wire with a stock one from a set i pulled from the jy yesterday, used the ground cable from the set to add a ground. Found a broken wire going to the alternator and repaired it. For kicks I slapped a battery in and tried to start it, it fired right up. No slow crank, no whine from engine bay. Let the car warm to about 165* and shut it off. Waited about 2 minutes and it fired right back up! A much needed win!
Car died, now stuck at the foot of my driveway. grrrrrrrrr, and I think it's the infamous ICM. Car died once while taking laps around the block, thought nothing of it, car started back up. Since it was running well and at temp I decided to go on another few laps BAD IDEA. Approaching my house something felt weird, slapped it in N from R to try and stabilize map voltage and that's when it died trying to back in. ALL attempts to restart have failed and that was at least 30-45 minutes ago, tried again Cranks > No Start.
- Connected In-Line Spark Checker between Cap/Coil > Faint & Inconsistent light while cranking
OMG as important as the ICM is why the heck do they just die???????
Swapped ICM, Issue remained. AND it started storming. The only thing I noticed different is my Oil Pressure gauge flat-lined. I swore I used to see it move when attempting to start but idk that I payed close enough attention. Any ideas?
It's been a tough couple of weeks but today I really saw a glimpse of this project moving in the correct direction. Car's driveable w/out stalling when coming to a stop OR when being placed in gear. The 3 lap test run today has me excited. This car is much more aggressive power wise when compared to my other ThirdGen, hit the gas and the front end wants to lift, I smoked the tires backing into the driveway by mistake. Just when I was giving up and thought all hope was lost... Another much needed WIN!
Went out this morning, car started on the first try idled high and settled in the 950 rpm range. Slapped it in drive and went for a cruise around the neighborhood. On my final lap, approaching a turn the car stalled out. Went to restart it, cranked but wouldn't start. Popped the hood poked around abit, nothing unusual but still cranks w/ No start. Unplugged the PCV from valve cover and boom started right up and drove home w/out issue.
- Any thoughts on why it'd start back up w/out issue when removing the PCV?
- Also, when the stat opens, shouldn't you be able to squeeze the rad hose and when releasing it feel the rush of coolant flowing? Edit: Went exploring, found stat stuck open. This is a 160* unit, I wouldn't be going after a stat at that temp. Grabbed the IRT and coolant was more like 100*. Ironically I dropped the stat rushing indoors and it closed lol.
Last edited by 92RS-HeritageEd; 05-20-2019 at 01:37 PM.
I'm very pleased w/ the re-resolution to this no start situation. Car started 3 times throughout the day, all within about 5 seconds of cranking, at different temps, same battery. I let it run for a few minutes each start. The JEGS ICM & Coil combo seem to pair well, the in-line spark checker was brighter than ever. If it starts in the morning as it should, i'll drive it around for a bit. IF all goes well then I'll be that much closer to roadworthy. Another +1 for the underdog!
IT'S DRIVABLE and I do mean further than 1 or 2 streets over! Started the car, Let rpm's settle, took a chance and started to drive while datalogging. I made it to the store and back w/out stalling or it cutting off like someone pulled the plug. The only time I notice extreme spikes in MAP voltage that could lead to a stall was when turning corners, the PSP is shot. Finally she can be taken on the road with a little less fear of a crap out!!!
I love me some junk yard revival threads. Why not put it in the members camaro forum where more people will see it? I wouldn’t have found it if it wasn’t for it being listed under “new posts”
Went to the yard today for 50% off preview sale, snagged a few spare battery cables. I pulled them from Chevy trucks because the ones on cars like the caprice were noticeably smaller especially the offshoot from ground to body. Re-added a 2nd ground, car fired right up and ran for a bit. I'm about 70% sure the car will start on command now, and while driving the trans seemed to shift as it should.
- Gas pedal is FIRM, like the cable needs lubed, is that's even an option?
- Upper radiator hose seems over pressurized? As is while it warms the pressure builds, and even w/ the stat open the hose remains pressurized. even after swapping stat's... Water Pump?
- Wipers Dead?
If this thread is better suited for the Members Camaros Section can it be moved?
Last edited by 92RS-HeritageEd; 05-23-2019 at 08:59 PM.
03-17-2019, 04:22 PM
how people safely install fuel pressure gauges in their cars... 
grrrrrrrrr, and I think it's the infamous ICM. Car died once while taking laps around the block, thought nothing of it, car started back up. Since it was running well and at temp I decided to go on another few laps BAD IDEA. Approaching my house something felt weird, slapped it in N from R to try and stabilize map voltage and that's when it died trying to back in. ALL attempts to restart have failed and that was at least 30-45 minutes ago, tried again Cranks > No Start.