We all know the T-5 is a weak link. Seeing as mine is an 83, even weaker. I'm thinking of swapping an Muncie M22 rock crusher into it. I'm not impressed with the T56, and everyone thinks they are worth a fortune. I don't care about overdrive either. So, question is: will an M22 bolt right in? I know the cross member will be different, but from what I see, the bell housing and clutch fork should be similar. (the 83 has a z-bar clutch, not hydraulic).

I'm going into this thinking that the cross member and drive will be the only problems. Is there anything else I am missing? Thanks.

 

The M22 has a 2.20 first gear. If you do not have a 3.73 or 4.11's in the rear you will eat the clutch in no time.

 

I have an 83 and I swapped in a T56. I love it. Maybe I had to pay a little coin for it, but it has been worth every penny. I had a muncie in the corner of the garage, but I sold it instead. The muncies are strong, but not as strong as the old guys think they are. You really need the M22 if you are making good power, but they are noisy.

I personally dont think it is a swap worth the time, but to each his own. If you got the parts laying around go for it. I am pretty sure you would need the TH350 crossmember as I dont thing the 700r/T5 will work.

Regardless of what anyone says, it is your camaro and you should do what you want with it.

(If you are not happy with it, be prepared for the "I told you so".)

 

No it will not "bolt right in".

It does not have the provisions to be "rotated" in the chassis like your T-5 is. It does not have provisions for the torque arm. There is no shifter available for it.

Only way it would be possible is with an aftermarket bell housing and torque arm; or the COMPLETE setup out of a 82 with a 4-speed, including pedals, z-bar, frame bracket, bell housing, fork, and hardware.

The crossmember and drive shaft are easy. No show-stoppers there.

The clutch actuator system doesn't matter. A hydraulic one would work fine if those other issues weren't in the way. The trans couldn't care less what pushes on the fork, or vice-versa.

 

On the bright side, you either know how to drive or aren't making enough power (maybe both!) to break the T5 yet, so it sounds like you've time to save up for a T56 or a good used backup T5 instead of devaluing your car.

 

It's not dead yet, but it's on the way (I'm not running the stock 305 right now). Plus when I got the car, the trans was dry. I'm either building a small journal 327 which I'd like the M22, or I'll throw a 5.3 truck engine with a 6 speed. I'm just trying to make up my mind.

Good point though. Step B would finding a way to save money (lol)

 

I didn't know the 1st gear was so high. Thanks for the heads up.

 

Thanks for the info. The 83's have z-bar clutches, did you change to hydraulic? Is there any way to keep the z-bar?

 

The 83's (including my car) have z-bar clutches, is there really a difference between the 82 and 83? Seeing as they are the same body style, I didn't think the drive train would be different.

The torque arm attached to an aluminum trans was a terrible idea from GM anyhow, I planned on relocating it.

I thought only the 4th gen's had rotated transmissions. I've been under my car a few times and never noticed that it was rotated, looks perfectly straight.

On that note, say I do an T56, can I still use the z-bar clutch? Personally, I've never been a fan of hydraulic (not as much fun slamming gears and not adjustable). And will the T56 bolt to the same bell housing? Thanks man.

 

On another note, the 2 T56 transmissions that I've seen are in my friends' 2 95 T/A's and they both sound like crap and are too easy to miss gears. So maybe it's just his wussy shifting

 

Yes there really is a difference between 82 and 83. They are COMPLETELY different.

If you KNEW these things like SOME OF US DO, instead of "thinking" and "never noticing" stuff about them, you wouldn't need to ask about them, now would you?

Yes the 83 T-5s came with a z-bar actuator system. I threw mine in the trash the instant I could find a hydraulic system to replace it; must have been in 86 or 87. Came across a wrecked 84 and ganked all the necessary stuff out of it, and got rid of that breaking, bending, binding, sticking, high-maintenance Stone Age crap the car came with. It was ASTOUNDING how much better it made the car drive. Before, it drove just like all the 4-spd cars I'd had for decades before, like the 79 Z28 I traded in on the 83; afterwards, it was SMOOTH, fast, repeatable, and maintenance-free.

Not sure where you're getting any of that from, except the non-adjustable part; that much is true, because they don't NEED adjustment. For EXACTLY the same reason disc brakes are "non-adjustable", because they work EXACTLY the same way: they don't need it. I seem to recall the same sort of Neanderthal thinking when they began to totally replace drum brakes on the front of cars, back in the early 70s; the cavemen somehow thought that drum brakes were better because they could adjust them. Yeah right.



Here's a T-5 BH. (Ignore the 6-cyl one in the bottom half of the pic) That particular one is for the hydraulic clutch, but it doesn't matter; the one I took out of my 83, which I still have, is JUST LIKE THAT except it doesn't have the bracket-like thing for the slave cyl to bolt to. You could in fact use the BH in the pic with a z-bar system if you had to. You can find plenty more pics of all this stuff, in the world's largest archive of pics of every conceivable object that could possibly be offered for sale, just like I got those up there because I'm too lazy to get up and walk out to my garage and find stuff and take pictures of it for you; not alot of sense in "thinking" and "not noticing" things when it's SO EASY to just LOOK at them, FOR FREE.

No.

No

That's one I haven't heard before. The 97 one I currently have in my my 83 car is pretty quiet. Wonder what your friend has done to ruin his? I don't have ANY TROUBLE AT ALL "slamming gears" in mine; in fact, it jams gears better than most 4-speeds (yes I have had PLENTY of both over the years, in fact used to run a lively business rebuilding them back about 25-30 years ago), better than a T-10 especially, although not as good as a Munice or T-5; OTOH, I tore up literally DOZENS of T-5s in that car, jamming gears like a 4-speed, so maybe that's not a good idea in one of those. The T-56 is a FAR SUPERIOR box.

 

The linkage, no.
The transmission, bellhousing and driveshaft length yes.

Hallelujah. You're right.
That's possible if someone was really inspired to do so and use non-83 parts but unlikely.
There are a couple ways to do so, yes.
I have run the 84-92 hydraulics with T5, 78-81 A-body (very similar to 82-83 F) mech. linkage with T5 and T56 and done a number of 4th gen F trans. rebuilds, retrofits of their linkage in other cars and I recommend against going z-bar.
There's a couple ways to do this, but it tends to just cost more and/or results in a weaker trans.
The hydraulics in those cars work very well but they are still a hydraulic system that needs periodically bled for best performance and with miles, the shifts may be less than perfect.
And the ballstud is different and located further inboard.

 

WHOAAA!!!

I had to read this thread twice and slap myself to make sure i was awake and
not having a nightmare.

I happen to own an 82 bird with the mechanical clutch + 4 speed. What a piece
of crap. Anyone wanting to swap to this setup seriously needs to see a shrink.

Common sense physics says use a hydraulic clutch assembly. As far as 4
speed vs 5, well there just isn't a question which is better. That little rock
crusher, when BUILT, is great at the track but, try and get on the freeway
and do 55-80 for a little while and FEEL the heat come up the stick shift.

P.S. am in the market for hydraulic pedal assembly guys. My mechanical
assembly is worn out AGAIN after 10 years after rebuild of said parts. I
plan to use a hydraulic pedal assembly with a hydraulic throw out bearing
'no slave cylinder'.

P.P.S 92yamaha i would gladly sell you my complete 4 speed setup which
includes a 3" Coleman aluminum driveshaft, universal mechanical/electric
VSS and Hurst Super Shifter. And by the way guys, these shifters are indeed
still available.

 

Okay, Okay, fine, I suppose the 4-speed conversion sounds like more work than it's worth.

Here's the reasoning behind it and my initial thoughts; I'm building this car as an autocross car with a small journal 327, therefore, I could care less about it's value or how it drives on the freeway. I don't need OD for the road course. But I suppose I'd have to build the M22 or a Super T10 just as much as I'd have to build the T56.

@sofakindom: I've looked up pictures of an 83 bellhousing and they all looked straight(bad pictures), I just dug the car out and looked under it, you're right, they are rotated. On that note, as for my comments on mechanical clutch linkage. I can adjust where the clutch engages (closer to the floor or further up). I love that because I control the feel. (My first car was also an 84 K10 with an SM465, mechanical linkage, I can slam gears faster in that than any of my friends in their Hondas). Disk brakes are awesome, I love them, however, you cannot adjust how the pedal feels. With rear-drum, you can adjust to a stiffer pedal or softer, it's all about preference, that's what this statement was about. I love 4wheel disk (hate drum), but I like the feel and adjustable of a mechanical clutch. This thread was asking "What would the conversion take" I wasn't asking to be talked out of it.

@JMD. Thanks so much for your comments. Very useful information, I really appreciate it.

 

Well now that changes everything. For autocross a built 4 speed would be a
good choice. As stated above, i have ALL the pieces you need and would
gladly trade for your 5 speed setup... lol
I had my 4 speed rebuilt 10 years ago and has held up nicely through a couple
of motors. It currently sits behind my 430hp 383.

 

Tick and others make adjustable master cylinders. You can easily adjust where in the pedal travel the clutch engages. So there goes that argument. Properly setup T56s shift great and are very hard to miss gears with a proper shifter. The only downside to the T56 is its heavy. If you want to go lighter I would look at the TKO.

 

I didn't know there where adjustable master cylinders. Good to know, thanks.

 

Cool, so I'm not out of my mind. Thanks for the feedback. I'll let you know on that trade. Once I finish the trans in my GTO, I may have time to dig out the Camaro and start tearing into it.

 

Glad it helped.

Thank you for the PM.

 

IIRC, the TKO and the M22 have the same front bolt pattern, and, I think, similar input shaft dimensions (someone correct me if Im wrong). If thats so, you can also use the stock T5 bellhousing with a TKO adaptor plate. I dont know if Mcleod still makes them, but they used to. This, of course, assumes that the M22 has the same front bearing retainer dimensions of the TKO. Might be something to look into.

Shame the TKOs are so obscenely expensive now. When I did the conversion, I dont think I paid more than $1500 total for the trans and kit to get it in. But, that was back before they really started to become popular.

 

McLeod 8610 I believe. And Hanlon Motorsports would be able to confirm or offer similar product.

 

i know this is old but there is a shifter for it 82 had a factory 4 speed manial
hurst makes a shifter as for tko vs muncie muncie shifts better everyday of the week and your arument about od just get a gv same price if not cheaper then a tko

 

Hurst made a shifter for the T-10 in a 82 a LLLLLLOOOOOOOOOONNNNNNNNNNGGGGGGGG time ago. Since I used to have a WHOLE BUNCH of T-10s laying around back in the early 90s, I thought I might want one, to maybe someday put in my 83. Musta been in ... ooohh, 95 or 96, I simultaneously had the idea AND enough money at the same time. No doubt you can relate.

The shifter proper (small piece with the 3 slidy things encased in a wrap sort of bracket thing, that the rods attach to) was still available. Of course that same "that thing", is the same for ANY NUMBER of applications, whether GM, Frod, Xler, or whatever. Almost any American 4-spd (except a top-loader) took the same "shifter", back in the day, from Hurst.

The "installation kit" for T-10 in a 82 F car - brackets, rods, handle, and so on - the majik that allowed you to put it in your car - had been discontinued however. In 95 or thereabouts, as said, I looked for it and it wasn't there anymore. Simply wasn't in the catalog (paper ... remember that stuff?) anymore. I don't think I've ever seen it electronically any time since AlGore invented The Interwebz. Don't think they've brought it back anytime since. They never did offer one for the Muncie (it would be different from a T-10 in several ways, obviously) since the last year of the Muncie was about 73 or so. T-10s came in 82 cars; Muncies did not, so, no parts to "upgrade" one.

I got rid of all my T-10 crap in maybe 98 or so, in a garage cleanup. All my/our Muncie stuff too. My late little bro and I had had a thriving business building em, both kinds of 4-spds, but it had begun to taper off a few years before. We built LOTS of em in the late 80s, but by 93 or so, not so much. No interest left in the market. We bailed.

We got BARELY above scrap value for any of it. Probably less than $50 difference for a GIANT pile of 4-spd stuff on our driveway. We advertised it for WEEKS beforehand, but only 1 buyer showed up: our primary competitor, another well-known builder in the area, with whom we had always had a respectful if not entirely cordial relationship. He picked through it and chose EXACTLY what we thought was the highest value, like, the low-ratio gears, and the 1" Muncie countershaft parts. Actually, I was glad to be rid of it; in the moment, I wanted the space more than I wanted the 4-spd junk.

Over 25 yrs ago.

I'm guessing you can still buy a "shifter" that would work, but the "install kit", is LONG gone.

I put a T-56 in that car in around 02 or 03. In 2023 I'm GLAD I didn't f*** around with a 4-spd.

 

I have owned a '71 Z28 with an M22 as well as 3rd gens with a built T5.

Trust me when I say you will be much happier with a well built T5.

 

M20 had a 2:56 1st gear.