erik69&85

iTrader: (1)

Just started yesterday...I have a T5WC behind a LB9 in the 92Z. Sometimes when I go to shift, usually in first gear, after stepping on the clutch, the car won't come out of gear... and if it does, it won't go back in any other gear. In fact, if I continue to roll with my foot all the way down on the clutch, you can still hear the gears winding down when they should be detached. If I stop the car, shut the engine off. Usually, after a few seconds, I can shift normally. I then restart the engine and go on my way... until the next time.

I checked the hydraulic clutch reservoir. All full. I put the car up and checked clutch travel... 14 mm. More than the 11mm in the manual.

It fells like I step on the clutch but the clutch does not release. It shows every sign of the engine and tranny still being connected.... but it will release eventually...and some shifts are not as smooth going in to gear as I would like... I think the clutch may be handing up on the input shaft (?) Not sure. It can take 2 hands to pull it out of gear if the engine is running and does not go into any gear (and grinds reverse). But it will pass after a short period of time and act fine... for a while... the problem always occurs in a low gear... usually 1st.

Any thoughts? .... the car has 117,000 miles. I do believe the clutch was replaced by a previous owner at least 30k miles ago.

Twin_Turbo

iTrader: (25)

Your input shaft is hanging up in the ceank pilot bushing most likely. Are the dowels installed in the block?

erik69&85

iTrader: (1)

Which dowels? between the block and the clutch housing?

I have never had the clutch apart since I have owned it... I just gave it a look over last night.

Should I look at replacing the crank pilot bushing then...? (what a pain... gotta pull all that apart....)

Twin_Turbo

iTrader: (25)

Yes the block dowels. Check if theyre in there. Check if the bell is torqued down. Any sag will hang up the input

GeneralDisorder

iTrader: (1)

Yep - pilot bearing/bushing failure.

GD

midias

These dowels in the right and left hand side on the block
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.thi...e8b418438f.jpg



If you have the trans out it is a good idea to replace the pilot bushing and bearing. The bushing should be a solid I think they are bronze or at least bronze colored. Cost about $5, for bearings I like hays they are about $60.

Don't worry the weather in rochester recently stopped sucking and you can do the job ez enough. Will take about an hour to get the trans out dont forget to drain it before pulling the drive shaft.

Twin_Turbo

iTrader: (25)

I prefer the bushing over a bearing. Grease w moly before installing the trans and it will never be an issue again

erik69&85

iTrader: (1)

This is starting to make sense.... now I have to get the car from work to home.....stupid $10 part that takes a few hours to get to. I will stick with a bushing... its always worked in the past.

Does it make sense to replace the clutch while I am in there and have everything apart anyway?... I have driven the car 30k since I bought it... don't know when the clutch was replaced. Why not buy a whole clutch kit and do the bushing, throw out bearing, and clutch all at once... (and get the flywheel resurfaced)... anything to look for to see if the clutch is still good or bad?

Yes, the weather is finally better in ROC... that's the problem... I want to DRIVE it and just I start.... this happens!....at least the car is normally garaged and I have a decent place to work on it.

I did a full clutch job on my 85...its just not fun working under there and taking everything apart in tight quarters....

Twin_Turbo

iTrader: (25)

Yes I would service the whole clutch. You do not want to do it twice

CKone

iTrader: (2)

It’s probably not related but I had a similar experience with my Formula while out driving one day. Was tough to come out of gear and no going in. Pedal felt a little mushy. Quickly figured out I could tap the pedal lightly a few times to build some pressure then stroke the clutch to make it work. I was about 15 miles from home and I drove that thing almost the whole way in 4th gear to avoid having to shift it lol. Noticed the reservoir was low slightly after but I believe it was still feeling the same after filling it. My experience was the slave was not traveling enough to release the clutch therefore not allowing any movement in the transmission. If your reservoir is full and pedal feels fine I would probably rule this out.

GeneralDisorder

iTrader: (1)

Agree - be prepared with a clutch kit, and just get a new flywheel to avoid the mess of trying to get it to a machine shop.

GD

erik69&85

iTrader: (1)

Well after 2 hours of work I got everything out.... only to find a pilot bearing in place of the bushing....and it clearly shows signs of damage .. an no grease in it.

After 30 minutes I got it about 1/8" out... just proud of the surface... but at this rate its going to take at least 2-3 hours to get it out...I'll look around the site but anyone got their best answers on how to get this bearing out?

GeneralDisorder

iTrader: (1)

Find a rod or a dowel that just fits inside the bearing, pack the cavity with greasy paper towels or white bread, and smack the dowel with a hammer to hydraulic the bearing out of the pocket. Or get a slide hammer pilot bearing tool.


GD

erik69&85

iTrader: (1)

tried the old grease trick....no go.... can't get anything tight enough to the inner clearance of the bearing... just oozes out all over....bearing has damage also so I don't think this is possible....

gonna try an assortment of pullers....or maybe its cheaper just to replace the engine....

TransamGTA350

iTrader: (2)

Break the bushing into pieces with a hammer and a sharp chisel. It’s soft bronze.

WildCard600

He said he found a bearing and not a bushing.

TransamGTA350

iTrader: (2)

You are correct. I missed that part.

Maybe a slide hammer bearing puller.

erik69&85

iTrader: (1)

Ok...got it out....for anyone searching....

I used an AutoZone Rental tool....pilot bearing puller part no 8070L...by CTA Manufacturing. The have a couple other ones but they are too big to fit inside the bearing. This one is small enough yet robust enough.

I inserted the puller, drop down the center screw to open up the arms, then just tightened up the center but...had it out in 2 minutes....the bearing was in bad shape....all the bearings came out with it and fell on the floor....

Gonna use a bronze bushing going forward....never had any issues with those in the past.

WildCard600

Glad you got it out. Bearing sounds good on paper but I've heard too many stories of bearings failing and chewing up input shafts and other carnage. I will always use a bushing myself.

erik69&85

iTrader: (1)

Well thirdgen gurus...you were WRONG...did a whole clutch job including pilot bearing replacement.....pulled it out of the garage....same problem.....did nothing to fix it...I admit it made sense but the pilot was not the problem.....

It's got to be the clutch hydraulics...a whole new clutch, flywheel, bearings, etc did nothing....about 8 hours wasted.....

Guessing I should do slave and master replacement....

TransamGTA350

iTrader: (2)

Replacing the clutch hydraulics would be the next logical step.

Although it didn’t correct the issue, now you have a new clutch that you know was done correctly.

erik69&85

iTrader: (1)

Driving the car a little to get it to act up and to think back when the problem happened in the past....I think the slave cylinder is catching in its bore....27 years and 117000 miles may make it a bit worn....the problem almost seems to act like it's at partial clutch.... Yesterday it started and I released the clutch and accelerated and the car bucked and jumped like the clutch was not fully released.

The problem is so intermittent that's it tough to diagnose....when it's fine, I have 15 mm of slave piston travel....but clearly sometimes I don't..,.

I have never messed with the clutch hydraulics before..,.gonna be interesting....

Does all this sound reasonable?

erik69&85

iTrader: (1)

For future reference.....
Did a total clutch replacement (clutch, housing, flywheel, pilot and release bearings), still had the same problem.
I replaced the slave cylinder... still had the same problem.
Then I replaced the master cylinder....and the problem seems to have been solved as it has not occurred in the last 3 days of driving. (So I spent $300 where I could have spent $30.)

The clutch pedal feels stiffer through its entire stroke.

BTW - The Perfection Clutch slave and master cylinders from Rock Auto both have metal bodies (just colored black).

I bleed the system each time by hanging the slave cylinder down and pumping the pushrod with the palm of my hand until no bubbles of any kind were seem at the reservoir.

When I started this my slave cylinder travel was 15mm, after the slave cylinder replacement is was 13mm, but after the master cylinder replacement is was 17mm.

I didn't see anyway to get the hydraulics out as a complete system.... the master cylinder is tough enough as it is. Getting the slave up or the master down past the steering shaft was impossible, so I did the work at the car... which turned out fine.

TransamGTA350

iTrader: (2)

Good to hear that you solved the problem. Sometimes this is just the way things go.

GeneralDisorder

iTrader: (1)

If it had a fragged pilot bearing then you're money ahead not having to replace the trans input shaft from driving it too long with a bad pilot. So even though you spent more money than if you had zeroed in on the hydraulics first, you still corrected a deficiency that would have led to additional collateral damage down the road.

Unfortunately we can't feel the clutch through the internet and sometimes that's an important part of diagnostics for us professional mechanics. We know what drivers controls are supposed to feel like.

GD

Tootie Pang

iTrader: (2)

erik69&85

iTrader: (1)

No doubt.....it often is the simplest problem.... if you look back, the first few responses seemed pretty strong that it was pilot bearing failure.. and to me it made sense.. probably should have stuck with my gut but got swayed by the rather straight answer I was getting that the pilot was the problem... oh well... the entire clutch system is now new....but it reminds me to trust my gut and not to take everything here as the answer....

And I had not felt any recent change in clutch pedal feeling.. so I guess it was a slow degradation.

Herriott88

My 91 wont shift at all. Ive pulled apart the tranny and replaced the pilot bushing with a bearing, the flywheel, the friction plate and pressure plate as well as the slave cylinder. I followed the bleed procedure on here countless times and each time i go to start it, it starts with a little struggle, but will not shift into any gear. The clutch will not go all the way down. It, at its best, will go 3 inches in and feel like im hitting the brakes when the cars not on. Any ideas?

Tootie Pang

iTrader: (2)

When you say it "won't shift" what do you mean? Like the clutch isn't disengaging? Grinding when you try to move it into a gear? With 3" or pedal travel I would think that the clutch would not be disengaging. That's too short. And if it stops dead, something is stopping its travel. Perhaps your throw out bearing is hanging up on the front bearing retainer sleeve?

A clutch is a very simple thing. When you press down on the pedal, the master cylinder compresses hydraulic fluid down to the slave cylinder which moves outward and presses on the release arm which presses and slides the TOB down onto the pressure plate spring fingers. The TOB rides over the bearing retainer sleeve. That's about it. If the travel stops, something isn't sliding or isn't in right.

This is excellent:

Herriott88

No matter how hard i push the clutch, it wont go into gear at all.