Ok that should keep me happy for a while ..270Hp is probly on the upper limits of what ill be able to get out of that(under k-memeber) set up.

Thanks again man! I definitly couldnt afford some 150 dollar ones from southbay.. not yet at least. 42#'s would be nice in the future.

 

No problemo. The 30lb Grand National injectors will get the job done for the horsepower your looking for, but like you said you can always step up to 42lb injectors in the future to take you even further with your specific horsepower goals. I hit the injectors with blue awhile back right after I bought them from a buddy of mine because I was going to use them in my '91 blue Formula, but I sold that car before I even got the chance to play with it. Could always repaint them, or strip them of the paint, it's up to you. They ohm perfectly though, as that is the main thing. They're on their way Mark...

 

it may be a little far for you to drive but you can call Jud's in brunswick, hes pretty reasonable on prices.

http://judsbest.com/

 

Thanks a ton bro! I really do appreciate it! My cars blue anyways so the color works fine.

 

columbia river mandrel bends is cheap just google there name for the website

 

wow.. i just looked and its only about 10-15 bucks for a 180*That cheep.


This pipeing is starting to add up...

 

As long as the return oil line is on a downward slop its ok right?? It doent have to be on a sharp angle does it?? Because the way its looking, the oil outlet of the turbo, and where im going to weld in the bung for the oil return, the turbo is only about 18 inches higher. I could make it higher but this would make it more difficult for the Intercooler piping.

Also does the turbo have to be mounted exactly flat or can it be slanted a little bit, not alot, just like on a 20* angle?? Is this ok?? For the bearings?

 

the oil line just needs to run downhill all the way lenght dont matter.

as far as the turbo when u say on an angle do u mean like the compressor side is higher then the turbine side or the other way around.

or do u mean that the oil feed and drain isnt stright up and down

 

I mean that the comp side is higher then the turbine side, its not much, mabet 1/2 inch difference total

 

That is fine...

 

By the way, send me a copy of your current .binary code based on your engine's naturally aspirated specs. Gonna put together an Open Loop only (boosted) code for you to have fun with based on those 30-lb injectors. You don't even need O2 correction once she's dialed in with a WB anyway, but what I put together will give you a good base to start off with...

 

my $88 bin i modded or $59 bin? Ive never had the chance to run the car in its n/a form with the $59 yet.

 

Send me the $88 bin. The idea is to keep it in Open Loop during all conditions; idle, part throttle, and wide open throttle. Since your setting boost pressure at no more than 15-psi, first you'll want to go into the current binary code and remove 12% of your fueling because your installing 30-lb injectors (if your currently running 18-lb injectors, of course). Then you take your fueling at 0" of vacuum and double it at 15-psi (wot), then go back and make your fueling linear in between 0" of vacuum to 15-psi (remember, each pound of boost is about 6.78% more air). Start off this way, hookup your wideband, then see where you are. Datalog everything of course, then add/trim when and where necessary, as well as your timing...

 

Pm's are messing up.. so here the last chip i made. Its with the stock 15Lbs injectors. Its in a zip file. TGO doesnt like .bin files uploads. Im lost on how you can make a $88 file work ion boost

 

The same way we setup blow thru carbs, we meter the correct amount of fuel with the calculated air, watch the wideband readings and datalog, then go back and make the necessary adjustments. We're tuning our fueling based on TPS x RPM, and we're not relying on any 02 correction at all, you just need the right amount of injector for your desired horsepower level. There is no reason for any 02 correction if you are dialed in. This will allow you to at least drive the car while you learn the $59 mask...

 

Ahh ok im understanding now.

But how do i know how much fuel is needed at a certain TPS signal?? When boosted?
I do have a starter file for $59 with 33lbs, injectors. I know thats a little rich, but should at least start the car...

 

I'm glad I didn't follow ANY of that idea, since I would be WAY over fueling my car in boost, and likely under fueling while not n boost.

Boost pressure is just a measurement of restriction, not a measurement of air flow.

fasteddie, just start with the $59 bin that you have, it will be quick and work well. The $88 bin will have other issues if you try to use it with the 3 BAR MAP sensor, like Baro correction, and some other parameters that need to see 100 Kpa for WOT fuel adders (PE mode and related).

All of the information for setting up the $59 in open loop and tuning is on the $59 site.

 

If anything it would be slightly lean, if both engines were exactly the same, other than the injectors, bin being for 33 lbs/hr injectors and actually using 30 lbs/hr injectors. In your case the engines are nothing a like, one being a 4.3, and your's being a 2.8.

You may find with the injector size difference and the F28 table adjusted, it will be quite close.

This is like those people that want to waste time breaking in a turbo engine in N/A form, then pulling all apart again to add a turbo. :facepalm:

 

Umm, this is why we datalog, first chip isn't the end all be all. By the way, do you have any video's of your engine under boost? Any timeslips? Anything whatsoever aside from empty words that leave me scratching my head wondering if you have any idea what you are talking about? Anything? Would like to see some...

Umm, who said it wasn't a measurement of restriction...?

Umm, no MAP sensor needed in alpha-n...

Why direct him elsewhere? Your allegedly a $59 expert, explain it for everyone...

 

the only downside i see in breaking in a totally fresh engine with a turbo on it is that u do risk getting some metal in the turbo bearings, which arent as forgiving as the cam/main and rod bearings in the engine, but the actual chances of it ruining the turbo are pretty slim

 

Remember, it isn't ideal to run Open Loop w/out 02 correction constantly, as making changes to your setup will require an immediate change in the tune. However, it is more than possible to do this w/the $88, and I don't see why it wouldn't be. Simply put, your enhancing your lookup tables. First burn won't be flawless, no first chip is, but it will get you close and you can work from there until you get your $58 code dialed in...

Like any other tune, we start off rich to avoid detonation then trim the fuel wherever necessary. My cousin runs a blow thru carb on his Mustang and I cannot tell you how many times we had it off and on to swap metering jets to dial in the fuel. Once it's tuned though, there is nothing else to do other than monitor the ignition and fuel to make sure there are no hiccups due to a wearing and/or bad component...

If you keep the bin that is in your ECM right now, and install your turbo and injectors, the engine will fire right up too. It will run very rich, but it will start nonetheless. You see, ECM's don't "see" boost per se, it see's what we tell it to see. You won't even see boost until part throttle anyway, and that is where you would tune your fueling when running alpha-n. BLM doesn't need to be precise, just close enough to where your engine is happy. As for $59, it is simply an expanded $58 mask, and changing the MAP multiplier in two places doesn’t produce a very linear output in my opinion. Stick with the $58 code...

 

I don't recall ever saying that the first chip would be the last chip. :facepalm:

If you look around you will see I have helped many people in many facets of their cars, and since that's the case, my words are not "empty," but chock full of experience and research.

I don't have videos of my car in boost, I don't see why that matters, honestly.

I do have an idle vid of my car running on $59 and DIS if you want to see that...

http://vimeo.com/14016010

Current time slips are in the mid 13s, with almost 3 second short times, if you're a drag racer you know what long short times mean to the overall ET. I really need to get some new tires this year, but then again, they won't be great for drag racing, since I plan to road race my car more than drag it.


You're implying that boost is a measurement of airflow, by stating that every pound of boost is X amount of more air, which is only true in theory, last time I checked, I don't theoretically drive my car, I actually drive my car, and real world is much different from theory. At very low boost that theoretical number may be true, but as the boost pressure goes up, there comes a point of diminishing returns where more boost pressure does NOT equal more air flow.

There's a large difference between simply open loop and Alpha-N. You might want to look up the differences before you go making anybody a bin file.

Hint, only MAF cars have Alpha-N mode.


Who said I am expert? You? I certainly didn't. I point people in the direction of correct information, though, so that they can learn what they need for themselves.

 

I'm curious how someone is supposed to get their $59 code dialed in, using $88. *scratches head*


this I agree with, as long as it's not so rich, that it washes down the cylinders.

Umm, the MAP multiplier is only changed in one place, using $59. When the F77x table is used, the F77 table is disabled.

Why do you have such a hatred for $59? Did one of the authors disagree with something you said? Did they use some ideas from some discussions on a forum that you were involved in? Tell us, what is it?

 

HAHA, if you're getting metal through a fresh engine, find a new engine builder.

I don't think I've seen one damaged turbo installed on a fresh correctly built engine.

I also find it funny when people say to baby a fresh engine for the first 1000 miles. I've always lived by the philosophy that you break the engine in the way it's going to be driven. There still needs to be some care taken to check everything over for the first while, but usually if something is going to fail due to a mechanical assembly problem, it's going to happen within the first few seconds of an engine firing for the first time, actual mechanical failures, like a poor manufactured oil pump excluded, because that failure could happen anytime.

Anyway, back to the topic at hand...

 

actually u get metal in a fresh engine regaurdless from the rings/cyl walls on engine break in

i dont agree with babying a motor for the first 500-1000 miles either, actually steping on it a good bit produces higher cyl presures which helps seat the rings much faster.

when u baby it the rings may never full seat before the cyl walls become to smooth to seat them

 

My words are obviously falling on deaf ears, so let's ask RBob. First and foremost, I recommended that Mark run his EBL system from the getgo, but that isn't going to happen until later on. So for now, we have a 3.1 build that will not see in excess of 15 pounds of boost pressure, so the question of course here is what would benefit him more, a 2-BAR $58 mask or a 3-BAR $59 mask. For starters, what is the $59 mask? It is basically the same thing Eric Marshall from Turbo Tweak is doing with his $58 upgrade, removing the hard coded addresses and replacing them with labels to achieve 32k from a 16k code, then utilizing the WBO2 that was already written into the code to begin with. They added features to $59? That is swell, but how does that help the 3.1 that will not see beyond 15-psi of boost pressure? Why hinder resolution when it doesn't have to be that way? If Bob see's something in running a $59 code with altered VE for a 3-BAR, only to be used for a 2-BAR setup, then I will contemplate it further. He is a very nice guy, so I don't expect him to put $59 down in any way, but we need to at least know what his thoughts are regarding what is best for Mark's turbo 3.1 application...

 

This is really a six of one and a half-dozen of another. The one main advantage that $59 has is that the WB reported AFR is in the data stream. What is missing is a list of what has been changed in $58 to make it $59.

Code $58 is fairly well documented in the Turbo P4 doc. I just spent some time on code59 . org and the documentation for it is light.

Personally, I don't like the loss of resolution and accuracy with the 3-bar MAP sensor. And would only use one if boost was over 15 psi. However, since Eddi already has the 3-bar MAP sensor, money is tight, and $59 puts the WB reported AFR into the data stream, I would tend to go in that direction.

Now, if there is a patch for $58 to data log a WB input, that is what I would recommend along with a 2-bar MAP sensor.

RBob.

 

Wasn't the $59 code based on an already fully commented $58 code w/WB already in it? I haven't even looked at the $59 code yet, but I remember reading somewhere that when you take out the factory/WB code from $59, your are left with very little. That is the beauty of your SFI-6, doesn't it utilize a 2-3 BAR flag allowing an automatic selection dependent on boost pressure, reverting back to a more usable and friendly VE table between BARS when needed...?

 

It may have been, I know that Grumpy (Bruce) was working on a variant of the $58 code he referred to as code $60.

If there is a copy of $58 patched to send a WB input to the data stream that would be the way to go for Eddi.

This is where I was looking for a list of changes. That would provide a better idea of what code $59 really is. Otherwise would need to check the XDF & ADS files for it against the ones for $58 to find out what was changed.

I had to check for a WB entry in the $59 ADS to see that it sent the WB to the data stream.

Yes it does. Can run it with a 1, 2, or 3 bar MAP sensor. Can also run dual MAP sensors when running a 2 or 3 bar MAP. The second MAP sensor being a 1 bar for the best in drive-ability. With the ECM switching to the 2/3 bar once in boost.

There are option flags that the ECM uses to know what is installed for a MAP sensor(s).

RBob.

 

Wow alot of discusion since i last was on here, good stuff.

I still plan to use the $59 code as i did get the 3 bar map, and can afford to get another one.

Tommorow afternoon, i hope that alot of parts are here, so i can stay out in the garage till the we'''' hours of the morning making progress.

I also hope that the SLC kit gets here so I can weld up the bung for the 02 sensor, Ill be sure to take a pic of the piles of stuff i got tommrow, Ill toss in the turbo and stuff to so you can see the one I have.

I dont thing the rest of the oil line stuff will get here by tommorow, but i did get a bung(for the oil pan), so i can weld that up if i have time tommorow night.

I feel like a kid waiting for christmas tommorow(waiting for parts) injectors, innercooler, oil stuff, WB o2 kit, couplers...The stuff that makes me happy is depressing sometimes!!

 

I know a couple of Grand National guys that have spare 2-BAR MAP sensors lying around, as the '7148 ECM's don't even use the feedback that it provides, as the MAP reading is only for the boost pressure gauge in the dash cluster. Absorb what RBob said above, as not only did he create the EBL, but he is the one credited for creating the xdf files. My turbo GTA w/305 will be running the EBL P4, and my Grand National is awaiting his SFI-6. Anyways, if you are content on going with the $59 mask, you will lose resolution by keeping it at 15-psi, but it will still work well for you nonetheless. Did you make the necessary pin changes to your 730?

 

Heres what I was informed to do:

""There are people that will say that the IAC wiring needs to be changed. I have tried it both ways with a 1227749 ECM, and saw no difference in the way the car ran.

The only pin changes that I have noticed that need to be made are when you swap from a 1227730 to a 1227749 (or visa-versa), and that concerns the ALDL data output. The pin is different between the two ECMs. If you're staying with the '7730 (Which $59 will work with), (MAIN INFO)then there are no pin changes needed.""

So I havent done any pin changes, as soon as the injectors get here, ill put that back together, and try to start the car up before the turbo charge pipe is done, If i have the oil lines together by then. So see how the code does with my car.

 

If memory serves me correctly, that was Junkcltr that wrote the above, correct? Yes, the IAC does not need to be touched, however, I believe you still do need to make a few changes from what I remember though...;

F6 --> F4 (for the 700R4 TCC)...
WB --> F14 for $59 input (E14 --> F14)...

 

sixshooter wrote that in this thread, a little bit ago.

I do think i need to change the WB input though, as when he told me the above info, I only asked what i needed to change to make the car run and tune as I was with the $88 mask. And i never got to tune WOT with a wide band on $88

 

That mostly came from junkcltr's old posts...;

 

ok so f6 to f4 then. I gotta look up a pin out diagram as i dont know the pin out arraingment off the top of my head.

 

Since were on this subject. This is the correct pin out diagram right? Also F4 says it goes to the air diverter And F6 to the TCC solinoid control right? Id like to know for future reference that I have the correct pin out saved on my computer at home.

http://www.chevythunder.com/199092_f...227730_ecm.htm

 

... the '749 is missing a quad driver that the '730 uses for TCC, this is why we repin F6 --> F4 when using the $58/$59 mask in the '730. Dropping in the $59 bin in your ECM will fire the engine right up (using high imp injectors of course, in which the 30-lb injectors I sent you are), but your fueling and timing will of course be skewed without the right tune, and your resolution won't be as precise as it would be with the $58 2-BAR code since your pegged at 15-psi. It sounds like a lot that we are all throwing at you, but your going to be fine.

 

Yea im sure ill understand it better once I can actually get the car in running condition. I still got q's about the SLC-diy2 wideband kit i got. I hope that gets here, tommorow or saturday so I can understand what all it is capible of.

My check engine light doesnt work anyways...LOL Light burned out a year ago..I decided it was too much work to change that light, since it likes to tell me that my air pump wasnt hooked up, untill i finally tuned that out of the eprom to make the car happy.

 

So you haven't even looked at $59, to know what it is about and you're slagging it?

Try actually informing yourself on the product/item/part/etc that you are slagging before commenting how "bad it is" or would be for "someone to use." :facepalm:

Even if that's what $59 is based on, what difference does that make? It's still been enhanced much beyond a basic $58 with WBO2 logging patch.

Again, look at the $59 bins to see that there is no loss of resolution, using $59 with the required 3 BAR MAP sensor.

Rbob, did not create all XDF files, if that is what you're implying, I'm sure he has made some, especially for his EBLs, but your wording is misleading.

I respect Rbob, because he doesn't slag other options, he just mentions the differences between the different options, and some possible drawbacks that might affect someone.

No, actually none of what I wrote came from junkcltr's posts, they are from my own experience. It seems you have a personal vendetta against me to disprove what I know, what I've done, what I do to help, and I'd like to know why?

Sorry I forgot about the auto trans pin changes, since I use an auto, just another reason why I point people in the direction of the info, instead of trying to provide all of it.

 

Its ok sixshooter.. thanks for the info on the pins!
And thanks streetleathal, thanks for bringing that up about the pin outs as i must of overlooked that info.

Sixshooter, i try reading as much up on code59 as possible but i seems to over look things at times. But that site is very helpful for this specific code.

 

If you don't mind me asking, would it be easier to swap the exhaust manifolds from left to right? Then they would dump out to the front where you can then just route them right to the turbo? or has this been tried before and there's too much other stuff in the way? I was just thinking that it would be alot shorter route to the turbo (just like the headers) and would let it spin up faster I think???


David

 

Exhaust ports line up??? i dont thing it would work, but heres a sweet set up
Heres a pic of pills, modded up log style passenger header.

 

The exhaust ports won't line up, they are not spaced apart equally...

 

Yes but the heads are the same from left to right, Meaning the head castings are the same, meaning that the exhaust can be swapped as well. On my 2.8 on the passengwer side, the two closest ports are in front, and on the drivers side those two are towards the rear. Right? Then it would stand to reason that one can swap the manifolds from side to side right? Or has my chemo got me thinking backwards again?

 

The only way your going to swap the manifolds side to side (meaning, drivers side on the passenger side, and passenger side on the drivers side) is if you flip them upside down with the exhaust flanges facing the hood...

Edit: Wait a second, I see what your saying now. Scratch that, it will work, but the accessories will more than likely cause a problem for you. I thought you were trying to get the turbo's up by the valve covers...

 

Well good! That means I haven't lost my mind after all! When I start my turbo, I'll have to give that a serious look to see what will be in the way.

 

u can swap them left to right but u have to turn them upside down, which on the passengerside puts the outlet directly into the back of the altanator

 

thats the setup i did for pilsbury i think he had 200 bucks in materials for all of that. we made the flanges out of flat stock

 

They don't need to get turned upside down, they'll line up just fine going from left to right and right to left. The heads are same so on the passenger side which has the front two ports closer together will mount on the drivers head because it have those two ports at the rear. Just look at those headers