It would go up and down... at one point the blm was 110 then would shoot up to 150. the ints were directly oppisite of the blms.

 

INT will add or subtract to the current BLM value to move the INT average towards 128. If the BLM reaches a limit, the ECM is still able to keep the engine averaging stoichiometric so long as the INT is not at its' limit. You more than likely did have a vacuum leak...

 

As long as you've forced open loop (setting coolant temp to enable CL at max will do this), then the NB won't be causing any fuel trimming.

I'll have to test, but I think grounding the NB O2 wire will at least show a change on the datalog to test the wiring and ECM functionality itself. I'll test this later on my test bench and get back to you.

I've tested for functionality of feedback by simply over or under fueling the engine and watching for a change, but I wouldn't recommend this at this point.

If the NBO2 is a heated type you can turn the ignition on and let it warm up, and after it's warm should show a lean condition, usually very low voltage, say around .08 to .12 mV, with the engine not started, just a heated O2.

 

I found one(vac leak) at one point and fixed it then started from scratch tuning....Let me look at the logs again becasue the one im talking about might have been before i found that leak.....I was just looking at old logs

opps forget those numbers... i was reading 125-135Blms at idle. I was looking at the wrong log before.. But as I look the o2 reading was .335-.355 at idle with those blm's

 

Remember, so long as the INT is able to maintain stoich in the combustion chambers, the narrowband reading remains the byproduct of that average. So even though your BLM was reading either too lean or too rich, the INT kept the engine running stoichiometric, which is why you were showing a high or low BLM but w/correct narrowband reading. That just tells you that the INT is doing its' job properly. Your narrowband is fine...

 

But where was your INT during those BLM readings though, as that would have effected the narrowband reading as well. The two go hand in hand, one is long term fuel adjustment, and the other is short term fuel adjustment...

 

his narrow band isnt going to read correctly at all if he moved it, it wont heat up enough

were did u mount the nb o2 anyways did u put it in the upipe to the turbo?

 

Its about 1 foot from where the pipe went off the y pipe to the turbo.. its about 4 inches from where the 90* pipe starts on the up pipe



The most stable numbers from the $88 tune was .390mv NB and 130INT 132BLM at idle

 

A .390mv is a tad above 14.7 air/fuel ratio, that is a perfect reading. You narrowband is fine...

 

What about this placement of the narrow band??? The new mask i have doent have the Cat, temp on it so i have no idea how hot that NB is.... Its not a heated one

 

Ok well heres the plan for tommorow if i get time... The timing is 20* at idle. It was sig. higher when i used the $88 mask. It was 24* at idle when i finally got a good idle tune.

So fix my lil oil leak, and see if i can hook the simulated NB into the ECU.. I really think that my NB isnt getting hot enough or something as its stagnit at .450 even when i rev the motor up, its like it never moves much more then .030mv ever!

And if i can get the simulated NB working correctly then Ill tune from there and if I get into having afrs of 14-15 and it hunts at idle again Ill add timing and see if that works out.

I did get the blow off valve adapter so ill do that also, as its snowing now, theyll be no driving the car for a little bit....

 

a steady .450 mv means the 02 is not hot enough, and it wont get hot enough unless ur cruising down the road in that location, thats why i had to goto a heated 02 sensor on my car. since u have the wideband dont even waste the money on one.

hookup the simulated nb output or setup the ecm for the wideband input

 

Ok dave that makes perfect sence as to why its just stuck at .450 or so. Ill get on that tommorow. Thanks!

 

That isn't true at all. A steady .450mv indicates an open 02 sensor circuit, or a faulty 02 signal ground. It is definitely getting hot enough, you just may have a bad sensor though, Mark...

 

Well either way, since this controler can output a simulated narrowband too, ill just hook that into the ECU pin tommorow. And see what happends.
Anyone happend to know off there head which pin the narrowband o2 sensor goes on the ecu?

 

E14

 

Ok E14 for the narrow input and im thinking that F14 will be the linear WB input. But ill focus on doing the NB first
My mask has alot of linear input flags but there is no SLC one. But they all have these values. Are these basically all the same?
(Volts*2) + 10

 

rob its not hot enough plain and simple been there done that got the tshirt

 

Been there done that lmao? Constant .450mv (bias voltage) indicates an open circuit or bad ground, end of story. But despite that, why would you suggest it is not getting hot enough without first testing it with an oscilliscope? Your wrong Dave...

 

I think we should change this thread to the argument thread

 

Nobody is arguing, I am surrounded by XFI and '7148 Turbo Tweak users all day long running every possible turbo configuration you can think of, and these discussions take place every single day. These discussions will only help you in the end because it will help you to narrow down your tune...

 

until an o2 sensor is at operating temp the voltage on the o2 line will be .450 mv period

stick an o2 sensor in a bench vise then hook a voltmeter ground to the body and the positive leed on the signal wire and start to heat the o2 up u will see .450 mv untill the o2 sensor is hot enough and then it will go up or down depending were u have the flame from the torch. but until it reaches it operating temp the voltage will not change from .450

do the same thing with a heated 02 but without the torch just hook the heater to 12 volts and hook up the heater ground and watch the voltage on a volt meter it does the same exact thing

and the point is anytime u move the o2 location further down the y-pipe on one of these v6 motors is it will not reach operating temp

he has a single wire o2 if it was not hooked up the datalog would show 0 voltage period

 

Irrelevant, you do not know what his 02 sensor is reading in terms of temperature, that is an assumption. Bias voltage is set at .450mv, and that is an indication of a defective 02 sensor. Do you think it is just a coincidence that the engine is running smooth with the narrowband at stoich, and running rough with the wideband running stoich? Try again...

Dude, you can stick an 02 sensor up your butt and it still doesn't change the fact that your making an assumption without even seeing what his EGT's are reading, not to mention aren't testing the 02 with an oscilliscope. Your making a suggestion that the 02 isn't getting hot enough, but that doesn't mean that is the correct suggestion...

Heated 02 sensors do not rely on exhaust temperature, they are self heating, and to correlate them with a non-heated sensor makes absolutely no sense. Not to mention, applying 12 volts will "heat" the heated 02 sensor, and if it does the same thing as the non-heated sensor when it is heated, then you are insinuating that the 02 is in fact getting hot enough. What exactly are you saying...?

Further down? How much further down did he move it? A narrowband 02 sensor placed either before the turbo, or in the turbo's downpipe, will get much more hotter than it would in a non turbo application being left in the stock location...

Not hooked up, what are you smoking? .450mv is bias voltage, and if it was not hooked up and if it was reading "0" voltage he would be stuck in Open Loop, try again...

 

im done ive already had this issue has have a few others with v6's on this board, fast i already gave u the soulution

if u didnt have a wideband a heated o2 in the downpipe would be the fix

 

Get over yourself my friend...

 

Rob i was just jokeing man.

It really cold out, like 15 degrees so I dont know what ill get accomplished in the garage as the heater in there can only do so much. But ill get the simulated NB hooked up and well see what happends!

Not to take sides but before when logging, if i just let it idle for 10 minuets, it would never go into closed loop when it was somewhat cold outside(>40 degrees out) The only time it would go into closed loop is when i started driving it down the road. And since I never drove the car yet, I cant say for sure that it is hot enough. No I havent measured EGT, but I think that either the NB sensor is bad or the temp isnt getting high enough just sitting at idle. So ill fix that and just use the simulated NB.

 

I said above that if your narrow band is reading .450mv constantly then there is a problem with the sensor, not that it isn't getting hot enough, but a problem with the sensor. You yourself said you had the same problem with that narrowband with your naturally aspirated setup running the $88 mask, which only pushes to a bad sensor even more, not a cold sensor. Also, you said your $59 code was setup to run Open Loop, correct? Did you alter the bin so that it will be able to reach Closed Loop? When 02 sensors reach about 600 degrees they will begin to read accurately, and the average temperature for combustion is 1600 degrees. When is Closed Loop enabled in your bin? What coolant temperature triggers it? Understand that just because an 02 sensor isn't getting hot enough does not mean that the engine is stuck in Open Loop because of it. Open Loop = Open Circuit, so unless the 02 sensor is disconnected (Open Circuit) it isn't causing Open Loop. If your stuck in Open Loop because of the weather I would look into your engine temperature. Are you running a thermostat? What temperature, 160? ECM's going back and forth into Open Loop and Closed Loop because of engine temperature is very common. A cold 02 sensor causes skewed data, not Open Loop. Only a disconnected 02 sensor causes Open Loop, or a malfunctioning one due to a open circuit or a bad ground...

 

Please clarify what coolant temperature triggers Closed Loop in your $59 bin, then clarify what temperature your fan(s) are triggered to come on, as well as what thermostat you are running...

 

Mark, I would like nothing more for it to be a cold 02 sensor causing your problems, as all it would then take is moving it closer towards the turbine on the downpipe, either that or putting it back in the stock location. For what it is worth, this is how cold starting works. When we start the engine cold, the ECM will keep the engine running based on predetermined coolant temperature readings until Closed Loop is enabled. What enables Closed Loop? The ECM waits for the correct coolant temperature to be reached, there is also a timer programmed in the memcal, as well varying output voltage from the 02 sensor. The first two are obvious, however with the 02 sensor, it only takes 300 degrees to tell the ECM that it is ready for business, and 600 degrees for the information being sent to be all the more accurate. You would of had to of installed the 02 sensor all the way back by the catalytic converter for it to not reach 300 degrees, in fact, I would go even further to suggest that it would have to be even further than the catalytic converter to be colder than 300 degrees because the minimum temperature at which a catalytic converter begins to function (light-off temperature), is 600-700 degrees. Again, I do not feel that your 02 sensor is not getting hot enough, because it should be. If anything, it is bad. That is all I am going to say about that...

 

My enable close loop is set at 151*c. It was like that from the starter bin, I left it that way as Im told from many($59 users) To tune in closed loop you need to work on the open loop first or youll be chasing you tail for awhile. Exspecially since the linear input on the ADX is there and avalible to tune VE tables.

The thermostat is a 180* one. I cycle the fan myself @ 200* if it gets there.

I did manage to get the BOV installed, ran the Vac line to the manifold.
Also some idiot(I wont mention names) forgot to tighten down the oil return line fitting at the turbo..that was causing the oil leak I was talking about yesterday.

So I am going to go do the f6-f4 pinout for the TCC and also wire in the simulated NB on the E14 and the linear one the F14. Then ill start the car up for a few just to see if the values all read correct and that the oil leak has stopped.

 

That is of course why you are not seeing Closed Loop, 151*C is 304*F...

 

street lethal, you "proved" that is nb was fine. now you're convinced its bad. make up your mind! You're info goes back and forth too much. Mark, (no offense street lethal) I'd listen to Dave or Rbob more! Sounds like you're on the right track. good luck with it!

 

also, how many times does mark have to point out that it is force open loop. he's not trying to go into closed loop, from what I'm seeing.

 

Yea I definitly know im in open loop only. I dont want to be in closed loop, untill I get the AFR's in check.

 

No offense taken, why would I be offended with someone who does not know how to read lol? I said the narrowband is fine in terms of being EXHAUST HEATED, nobody is saying that it is "functional" though because of the constant .450mv, if you carefully read what I said instead of spewing nonsense you would see that I pointed out that the 02 sensor itself was suspect if it maintains .450mv due to an open circuit or bad ground in the sensor, not that it wasn't getting heated by the exhuast, but that it might be a bad sensor in itself. The narrowband is obviously not causing Open Loop due to it not getting hot enough, his Closed Loop enable setting in the bin is, that was just to clear the air about Closed Loop because he stated that he was having a similar problem with his narrowband with the $88. That was the argument, so buy yourself a clue. As for listening to RBob, I invited RBob to this thread already through PM a week ago, as well as suggested his EBL before he even got into burning chips. So, I appreciate your little rant, but if you cannot suggest anything useful in terms of helping Mark to figure out his problem, then why say anything? His engine stalls at 14.7 using the wideband, so I suggested changing the spark reference in his $59 bin to match his 3.1 setting because I believe the $58 bin is set to "0", but nobody commented about that. Aside from that, he cannot idle with the wideband reading stoich, let alone anything leaner than that. So, what do you think it is, AM91Camaro_RS...?

 

Mark, my whole entire argument was for you to allow the engine to run in Closed Loop to visually see what your narrowband is reading, and try to correlate that reading with your new wideband sensor. You need to first make sure your wideband is reading correctly before you tune with it. If you trigger Closed Loop by lowering the coolant temp target, allow the 02 sensor to adjust long and short term correction to see where your BLM is, and get a feel for how the engine is running by getting it as close to 128-BLM as possible, then correlate your wideband reading with what your BLM's are reading. That was my whole entire argument. As said, I purchased an LM1 as my first wideband years ago and it was giving me the wrong air/fuel reading right out of the box, and I wouldn't have known that had I didn't compare it. If I didn't compare that reading with my BLM, I would have been tuning with it being a full point richer. That is what I was saying...

 

I suspect the timing, also. I bet it'll go into closed loop (once allowed!) when he can drive it. All things considered, as they are, including outside temps I imagine the nb sensor is ok. I'm no expert at tuning, by any means. I'm not claiming to be. But, I have dabled in it, a little. I've read lots of things that Rbob (and others) have posted and his stuff just makes sense... I've been doing lots of reading in this thread because there is lots of good info. There's also lots of useless crap.

 

Ok well i got the wires all done and now the WB and NB match. Also I can read out the AFR with the ADX file i have.

I got the car to run well at about 13-14 AFR. Any higher and it hunts, even if i add timing. Doesnt the colder Intake temps play any effect as the engine temp was 180 but the Intake temps never got higher then 50*.

And just to goof arround i did give it a little gas in drive just in the garage, carfully looking at the spark retard/knock and the AFR...WTF is that blow off valve loud and so it the turbo. I just did it once and dont worrie i wasnt getting on it too hard, the AFRs were at about 11 flat when i did spool the turbo up. Just wanted to make sure the turbo worked...

 

Good!

From what I have been reading about the $59 code, because I have never ran that bin before and I can only go by what others who have ran it are syaing, many people experience that very issue. They can get the idle to be very smooth in the 13-14 range, but once they lean it out to the 14-15 it will hunt. This is only without a load, as during a load they can get it to idle well in the 14-15 range at low RPM...

Where is your base timing set, Mark...?

 

u do relize this now requires a video right :P

 

Kinda' makes one wonder if the injector PW is getting small and the ECM is switching to quasi-async mode...

The status is in the stock $58 code data stream.

RBob.

 

Bob, this is what puzzles me when members who run $59 say that they run a 15+ air/fuel ratio when quasi fuel is so horrible to begin with. I think this is what Steve's (ZZ3astro) problem was all along before he went Megasquirt, he was trying to run a lean air/fuel ratio with $59 in conjunction with injectors that were losing ohms (dropping from 12 to 8.8), and it was hunting horribly. Even the writer of $59 admits that the code is essentially an expanded $58 code, and encourages everyone to disable quasi fuel. I just ran a quick search, and this is what he explains, so perhaps give it a try Mark...

 

Ok ill take on but dont laugh at the burnout i do in the garage...LOL

 

Ill try this tommorow, honestly im burnt up about the tuning for the day. im just happy i got the pin outs done, and got the NB and WB going thought the ECU correct.

Thanks for the tips though as i WILL try this tommorow!!

 

It very well may have been switching in & out of quasi-async fueling. That can cause incredible surging. Even more so when the injector compensation tables aren't set up correctly.

The other item about allegedly running that lean at idle is cam overlap. Get just a small puff of mix going out the exhaust during overlap and the WB isn't reporting the true in-chamber AFR.

Not sure why they don't eliminate the q-async mode and implement a single fire mode. Works much better.

What is interesting about the $58 code, is that it is a port of the early C3 turbo code. So much of the early code was carried over instead of creating $58 from a clean sheet of paper.

RBob.

 

Well i had to have a little shot of fun to end the night. Here is a video(dave made me take this) Of me ruining my garage floor with my tires.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PlyJWQygYrw Dont laugh!

Heres what the first time I gave her gas did for specs. Max of 4.5psi of boost and AFR from 10.8 to 11.2 under boost and no spark knock/retard.

2nd time specs were 6psi of boost and AFR from 10.4 to 11.3. Absolutly no spark knock/retard.

On both of these recordings the higher AFR was at the low end of boost. The more boost the lower the AFR's went.

Now i was just playing arround as I cant drive this thing beause it snowed last night and I need to play with the Idle more, so this is just for amusement. And at least it was posi! Car wanted to move badd.. I just wanted to play a little as ive spent ALOT of hours getting this together in the last month or so...

I do love the fact that I can record the AFR in the $59 mask on tunerpro.

 

Good deal. So the narrowband always worked, and it now matches the wideband readings properly because your wired it correctly. As for the idle, from what I was reading, the 13-14 air/fuel ratio at idle is common with $59 users, as even the administrator of Code59.org indicates that he can get a tame cam engine to reach 14-15 air/fuel and idle well, but tunes the more aggressive camshafts in the 13-14 air/fuel range otherwise it will hunt any leaner than that. Those are his own words. He also recommends disabling quasi fuel. Good luck with your build from this point forward Mark, as I am done with this thread. If you want that heater box just pay the shipping for it and you can have it for free. Thanks RBob for confirming everything...

[/done]

 

Ok thanks Rob!! I dont know what was up with the sensor so I just used the simulated one into the ECU from that SLC controler.

Why are you leaving the thread man??? Youve been here the whole time, theres no sence in leaving it now! Dont let a few arguments take you away from the thread, you, dave, and sixshooter have helped me the whole way man!

 

IIRC quasi-async is disabled in all starter bins of $59.

An O2 sensor that does not reach temp, or cools off at idle can certainly cause a forced open loop situation. This is quite common when people add headers and use the original non-heated O2 sensors to many vehicles, since the O2 sensor is then moved farther away from the exhaust port, and many times into area of cool air flow. I guess I now have to mention that this last paragraph was just for interest sake and in no way related to fasteddi's build, otherwise I bet I would get a quote and being told I'm wrong...

 

u need to adjust ur bov , also u have to hook it to the manifold behind the throttle body it cant be hooked to the turbo compressor outlet, it has to see vacum when u close the throttle.

didnt seem like the bov went off at all in the video all i heard was compressor surge