after u set it to 10 u need to set it in the chip as 10 as well

 

Technically, you could set the KREFANGL to 17* and the F1 table should match up then, but I would still pull the dizzy back, the reasons, are quite technical, lets just say it's a time window for spark to jump the gap thing. Which may be what is also giving you some issues.

 

Ok guys. I will get at that in a day or two. Ill just set the chip and the car at 10* base.

Six i did have some trouble with the VSS, it read with the magnetic option but is way way off. Any ideas?? I see some values to change but Im not sure which one.

Thanks a crap load dave and sixshooter!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I hope that helps.. Im sure it will!!!!

 

fast set ur base timing to 10* with est unpluged and burn this chip and try it

 

btw how do u open datalogs with tuner pro. its been a long time since i messed with it and i deffinatly like my tuner studio nd megatune so much better

 

That is why I kept asking you where your base timing was last week Mark, the $59 code is essentially an expanded $58 code, and spark reference in the $58 is set to "0", and you need to match that with your base timing. When I ran the $58 in my TPI, spark reference needed to be set to 6* BTDC in the bin because that is where my base was...

 

Well I learned something new as I had no Idea that i had to match my timing in the mask with the timing on my car. Damm i overlooked that post...which ive done alot of..opps!

That explains why when I tryied manually turn the timing it didnt make any difference how the car ran. I changed it from 17 base to 12 at onepoint and it didnt idle different at all once i hooked the ets wire back up and reset the ecu... I just sounded like it was timing issues...

 

Go to accusition and load the definition file(ADX i sent you)
Then accusition and load the log file (XDL i sent you)

Then use the play button and the tabs in the middle that look like guages and such to watch the data. Or go to acusition tab and look at the bottom of the tab for the show guages..exc

 

Even after listening to one of your earlier vids last week, you can literally hear the engine responding very lazily when you blipped the throttle. When I mentioned the spark reference last week I was hoping that you reset your base timing as soon as you read that, either that or changed it in the bin, as I too overlooked that when I first ran the $58 bin a couple of years back. That change should improve your idle. If that doesn't help your idle issues for some reason or another, then I would honestly look at the MAP sensor, but that more than likely should be the issue...

 

It is this parameter:

Road Speed Sensor Constant (KSPDSEN)

Will need to either double it or halve it. This is to go from a 2K PPM to a 4K PPM VSS.

RBob.

 

Ok heres the update.
Timing set at 10* base in the car and on the chip.
I had to go as low as 93 on the F28 table but ended up being 100 as a value. That is low but i got the AFRs to 14 range and it did hunt but went away the longer i drove it. The first video is of when i finally got the car to idle in the 14 range, but it hunts in this video.

I then went to drive it and relized that the VE table is bad bad now. I ended up maxing it out and started to use the F77x boost multiplier, but when i did that it helped a little, but still needs more fuel, and that for some reason.. messed up my idle??? Why is that?? the 400RPM cell in the main VE is the idle cell right??

So I took a video again of a(I though it was higher but tunerpro said 30% throttle (3psi) Pull. The AFR's sux!! And there is alot more fuel I need in those tables.

Also i relized that my clearence is less since i hit a small dip going about 85mph( i didnt realize it was that fast) and scraped the exhaust but it is ok as i checked it out asap! It would take a mile to get that fast before and since i was watching the afr's an such i didnt relize how fast i was going...

Lot of work to be done but I think I have a decent grasp on the tuning aspect. Now i wish i had one of those emulators(or however its spelled) I burned like 15 chips in a hour!

Got the new colder plugs gapped right and 5gal of 93 in the tank. No spark knock!! But bad AFR's so theres always another day...

Idle http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rVBvRxh1F7A

30% pull... bad afrs! Maxed ve table http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OrUjjH9Na74

 

Ok couldnt stop myself and fixed the idle, somewhat and added fuel in boost mult. F77x. Heres the result.. Ok afr. still need a little fuel. But here is the videos. Im dont know why when i let off the gas the AFR guage goes nuts for a second?? Back pressure???

First pull was 62% throttle and 4.48psi max.
Second pul was 52% throttle and 4.1psi max.
Enjoy.
I wana open this car up so much!! But i can wait a little longer(dont wana kill my car!
Its a amazing the pull it has with just that little amount of boost!
That cars way faster at 60% throttle then it ever dreamt of at 100% in its N/A form.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q9nL-...ature=youtu.be

This is the last tune i did today, so ignore the other videos.

 

congrats man, do u have a chip eraser or did just order a crap ton of chips lol and ur bov is not opening, u sure u dont have a check valve in the line with the bov?

richen it up just a tad more, and the reason ur afr goes crazy is when u close the throttle it goes into decel fuel cut

next video keep the camera on the speedo

 

Yea the burn2 from moates erases the chips, I got like 5 of them but really only use one over and over.
I have the BOV t-ed right at the manifold. No check valve. Im thinking of takeing it off and looking to see whats up with it. It scares me that it doesnt work.

Ill add more fuel to the table F77x on wednesday. (40* and sunny that day) Mabey tommorow if I get lucky.

Ill keep the camera on the speedo next time.

Im so happy its getting better. Does have alot of power though, I cant wait to open it up once the tables are better.

 

get me some pics of were u have the bov lines hooked up and the bov on the pipe etc

 

Easy to explain...
its t-ed in to the outlet for the map sensor..Is that ok?? Or is that a bad thing?

 

man its been a long time since ive dealt with a 3.1 car i dont even rember were the map sensor line is on the back of the intake take the bov off the adapter [ipe and leave it hooked up with the car running stick ur finger up threw the bottom and see if u can push up on the valve it should move pretty easy.

or if u have a vacum pump u can hook that upto it and see how much vacum it takes to open the valve

if it dosent move u will have to take the valve apart carefully clean it and lube it and put it back together

 

The map outlet is on the back on the manifold on the pas side of it.
Ill take it off and check it with the motor running and see if its easy to open. The vac line is about 5ft long.. Its long but is brand new, ill look for cracks and such in the line also.
I wish I had a vac. pump but i dont

That was like a 4psi shot on those runs. Fun man!! Its hard not to wana step on the gas more, but I dont have much confidence in those afr's yet....

 

FWIW, I'm not hearing what Dave is regarding the BOV, it sounds like it is opening to me. Ok, maybe a little in the last video. Sometimes cameras will pick up on sounds that are not heard in real life. :shrug:

I think you've missed some key points in tuning $59, I'll state them here to make sure they are stated again, and clarified on some points.

The 400 RPM row for idle only applies to the F1 table, the VE table uses actual RPM values for idle tuning. The thing to make sure of here is that you are using the correct table, for VE at idle. There are flag options to use or not use the F29c table, and whether to use or not use the F29x table. I would assume that the F29x table is checked and that the F29c table is not at this point.

There is also a flag to use or not use the F77x table as well. I will assume at this point that the use F77x table is checked, it is in all $59 bins I have looked at. One thing to remember here is that the lowest value (100 KPa in the F77 table, 84 KPa in the F77x table) will affect ALL MAP values at and below those values. I.E. the 84 KPa cell in the F77x table will affect all fueling at 84 KPa down to zero KPa. This is why I usually set this to zero, and adjust the F29x table for fueling.

You can, in order to keep from maxing out the VE table, bring the F28 table up some, and reduce the F29x table around the idle cells. It is this reason that I say, that the caluclation is that is supposed to be to calculate the base pulse width (BPC in the F28 table), is not accurate, since the VE table generally gets maxed out very quickly. It is a bit of a work back and forth deal until you get a good balance, this is why I've had values in the F28 table from 118 to 148 at various points in tuning and learning more about how the $59 code works.

As Dave said, the high AFR numbers when you let off the throttle is due to DFCO, there is no fuel being injected, so the AFR goes extremely lean while the engine RPM drops, until a certain RPM or MPH is met.

Do yourself a favor and buy an Ostrich 2.0, more than worth the money on it. No need to log and burn EEPROMs to turn around and test the change, though you are making good progress doing that, but with the emulator, you can make changes without turning the car off, to see the results immediately.

 

Is it actual vacuum line? If it's too soft it can collapse under vacuum and not provide a vacuum signal to the BOV.

I prefer to use as much hard line as possible, I tend to use brake line for as long of a run as I can, and then use rubber vacuum line only to make the connections to the end points.

I found years ago, that my BOV (A Mitsubishi BOV), would open quicker than when I used just soft line.

 

the bov should sound just like this ( vented part of the video)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KNSdQdd6pkI

thats the same bov from ebay , only difference is fast has the newer model that has the horn that screws on the old version just had a stright discharge that u could clamp a hose to. on fasts; if ur not clamping a recirulation hose on it u leave the horn on it

i know ppl that have used that same bov before and they all either leak or dont open right

thats why i recomend the rfl style its a piston design bov so theres nothing to fail, were as the type s/rs he has is a diaprhram type

 

hey six does $59 use spark adv/ret error tables?

eddi, whats the IAC counts doing during surging? does the spark adv rel to tdc jump up and down?

 

There are some scalers that might be what you're asking about. Are you asking about correction for idle errors, ro something similar?

 

Ok sixshooter, I understand the tables better. The F29x is checked along with the F77x in the flags of the file. Being that the lowest value in the F77x controls all the KPA's under that makes perfect sensce as when I was playing with the F77x it messed up my idle AFR, but then i though..why mess with the VE under 99KPA since I had a good feeling that, that was the reason that my IDLE changed when i added the boost multiplier. So when I only used the bust mult. for higher then 99KPA it idled good and as you can see drove ok also. Needs alot more tweaking but im very glad that it idles ok and drives ok.

I will scale up the F28 table a little more since 100 in that table did max the F29x quickly.

It is just vaccum hose that I used. Mabey it is colapsing as I didnt think to use harder line for the BOV

 

BOV sounds fine to me. What your hearing when you let go of the throttle isn't really compressor surge, per se, it's just horse sneeze, not enough surge to do any harm at all. My Grand National does the same thing, and I'm not running a BOV on it, nor did it come with one from the factory. You'll definitely know when your compressor is really surging Mark, because it will sound like this...;

 

Wow is all i can saw about that video. I didnt think mine ever serged when it was accelerating under boost.
But I am going to start the car put all the brakes on and get the boost to come and get a friend to hold a paper next to the BOV.(i never did that yet) then if it doesnt work ill tear it out and see if the vac. line is colapsing or somethin.

 

Remember that tuning your air/fuel ratio is just a balancing act. 11.5 air/fuel ratio isn't set in stone, we only tune around that area because of the fuel we're running, as well as how much timing we're after in conjunction with that fuel. Keeping it rich at wide open throttle keeps the charge cool, but leaning it out will make more power. You won't see any knock right now, even at a 13.0 air/fuel ratio, because your timing is very modestly tuned, and your air temps are low. Once you see air temps above 100-degrees, and once you start increasing timing, then you'll want to watch closely for knock...

 

deff use the paper trick with a friend , the ebay turbos have very soft bearings in them and surging when u get off the throttle will kill the turbo pretty quick

 

Ok thanks for the tips on the spark knock. I did try the paper trick and also got my friend to put his hand over the opening. He said he felt nothing.

I then took off the valve and did notice it was easier to puch when the car was idling. Also took the vac hose off first and a strong vac was present.

I also while the BOV was off, I made boost, and went from a vac in the charge pipe to positive air I could only get up like 4 psi of boost before i started to spin the tires even with ebrake on.

I need to check out the line as i dont have anyway to see if the line is colapsing under the boost to vac transition. I am going to look and see if I have any brake line arround the shop. I did notice that the vac line closest to the manifold gets warmer and softer then the rest of the line.

 

if i were u id junk or see if u can send that valve back and get the rfl one i told u about

 

I doubt i have any but could leaks in the charge cause the BOV not to work??

 

How about this vid/sound? Its sounds like its blowing off now after I tore it apart. Lap died in datalog... so i have no idea what boost was there, it was at like 3krpm with both brakes on. Can hear it more with second rev up.

Also what is the best way to adjust it?? Have the valve just a hair open at idle???

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RaowgQwEEJ4

 

sounds like its going off now, u want it so it just closes at idle, with the motor running place a lit candle or cig lighter infront of the bov horn and it will try to suck the flame in it if its open. for ur lil bit of boost u can prolly adjust it all the way soft

 

Ok no problem. Im hoping to log tommorow after work if the roads are nice. The snow melted today, and its suppose to be 40* and sunny tommorow. Id like to be able to lay into the throttle some more. And make sure the lines are all ok.. Well see how i feel about the tune. I added more fuel just in the above 100Kpa tables, so well see if its ok.Every timing cell is under 16 SA and the intake temps the other day were in the 50's and it was 30 out, but my air dam isnt on yet, as I need to modifly it a little and since its so cool out I really just turned the fan on if I saw intake temps going up. So Im confident that spark knock isnt going to happen at all.

 

@ sixshooter, yes i was wondering if it had spark timing idle errors tables


@fasteddi, put a ballon over the BOV also, whats your IAC counts doing at idle while the engine is surging?

 

duck call or whistle lmao

 

Between 9-15 when it hunts badd! (IAC Position at idle in park). Really though its seems not to hunt as much today when i started it up, let it warm up and checked the BOV. AFR's were a solid 13.8-14.0 and Im happy with that for now. Alot better then the 11's i had the other day...

 

I know I needed something..duck call it is!!!

 

LMFAO @ duck call!

hey eddi can you post up your newest bin, xdf,datalog and adx so i can take a look at what you got?

 

Heres the latest stuff as of yesterday night.

 

to me it looks like idle speed is a little low for having a cam

look at your "desired idle for drive" and "desired idle for park/neutral" and raise those a little higher.

also, looks like $59 uses ignition timing to finely control idle, when i installed my cam i needed to increase the values in these tables by 3-4 degrees to reduce the ocsillating idle. these tables are....

Idle Speed Stabilizer Spark Compensation -vs- Positive RPM Error (F88)

and

Idle Speed Stabilier Spark Comp. -vs- Neg. RPM Error (F89)

try bumping idle up to 800 ish and increasing the spark comp values as well. also, you have some nice history tables you can reference to get your VE tables dialed in.

hey Sixshooter, did you say the have an N/A $59 version too? i might want to try it lol

 

Hi,

I'm not sure if you're still having spark issues, but if you are, why not goto a DIS setup and get rid of your distributor ?

I'm pretty sure your block should have the spot for a CPS, then all you need is the dummy shaft for the oil pump and a ign module/coils/wires.

I run my car on $59 with DIS, works mint. I can send you a starter file.

Just a suggestion.

 

he would need a new cam and a 3.4 timing cover an oil pan to go that route.

the cam he has from delta wont have the magnet or whatever they use in the end of it

 

No he wouldn't.

The cam has nothing to do with the DIS setup that is used on the 660.

I don't believe the RWD 3.1L has provisions for the CPS though.

 

only used for the sfi on the 3.4 then ?

 

Ok blazer ill look at those tables and see if that helps hunting, but like i said earlier the hunt wasnt there yesterday when i started it up and let it run for awhile, even when i reved it up and such it would go back to a smooth idle at 13.8-14afr. But mabey if i bump up the idle 50Rpms or so ill be able to lean it out some more.

Ill have a few min tonight to play with the car, if the idle doenst hunt then ill go for a ride and do some part throttle pulls again. See if the AFR is better under boost. And yea I really like that ADX file alot. Great history tables and dashes!

Also im sticking WITH a dizzy. Thats a good enough ignition for me and really the turn over would cost more $$ for DIS. This turbo project made me broke. cost about $750 in total and thats without all the tuning eq. i already had.

 

Talk to Justin (Orr89Rocz) about his idle, as when he got started with the code your running he was having the same problem that Steve (ZZ3astro) was having, and now the same problem that you are having, and he was stuck running $59 at 1100-RPM at idle, couldn't go any lower than that. Not sure if he ever resolved that issue, though. I'll invite him to this thread to see if he could shed some light through his experiences with that code...

 

Couple of notes I've learned with code $59 that helped my engine. I too had some idle issues for the longest time and there was a thread here about it. rather lengthy.

Definately do this...disable quasi fuel mode.

Injector vs battery voltage stuff is also extremely important and needs to be carefully tweaked to get things to work right. Especially with larger injectors. I had a alternator charging problem and had my car drop voltage to 9 volts before and less! Surprised it stayed running but i just tweaked those tables to keep air fuel happy and the motor idling. Still got some work to do but with the new heads/cam its gonna be starting from scratch again anyway.


I agree with this. I originally took Dig's 60lb bin from back in '09 or so and divided the VE table by .75 to get a VE curve for 80 lb injectors which I was using. Seemed to help at first but the V6 fuel curve just wasnt gonna match my 400" V8. I ended up taking a n/a VE table for a L98 TPI speed density car, and plugged that into my main VE table F29X. I use 3bar map.

Smoothed that 0-101kpa section out, extended the curves by percentages into the boost range to "fill" my table out to 300kpa, and then adjusted the base pulse width constant to get it all to "run". This was a rather difficult process of iterating values to get things to finally fire up.

Once you get it started, you then have to tweak the VE table. My base pulse constant is 172 now but I dont worry what that number is, as long as the VE table is making the fuel requirements the motor needs.

Here are some tricks that helped me getting my motor to idle stable and it will idle leaner than 15-16 to 1 but I have it set for 14 or so. It feels better at that point with throttle response off idle.

--I use both F29X extended VE table and the closed throttle table F29C. This table allows finer fuel adjustments in the idle cells, and they must match the main F29X table or atleast VERY close. This has been the biggest help in getting a stable idle for my combination.

--You really need to pay attention to all the cells and MAP areas to get a nice smooth curve for your motor. Any spots that have too much fuel or too little will eventually start idle hunting. Need to spend ALOT of time idling to really get it right.

--timing table helps alot too. I tend to lock out my timing around the idle cells/map values so timing doesnt adjust my motors idle speed. Code $59 does this for you with using that 400 rpm row as your main timing for idle. This helps. Generally higher advance stabilizes idle but forces higher idle speeds. To correct that you need to adjust your TB position to allow less air, and also IAC opening on start up. Think initial base startup position for IAC will help that.

-- I work from the main F29X table for my VE. Zero'd out the F30/F77x boost multiplier table since I'm not maxing out my VE tables yet. I idle around a value of 33.20 VE and my peak torque VE at 15 psi is in the 60 VE range. So I got alot of fuel adjustment left, but this also seems to show how sensitive a change in VE can be in the tables with injectors this large. Its very hard to fine tune my car from say 11.5 air fuel to 11.2. The smallest step change tunerpro will allow me to do sometimes changes .3-.4 air fuel at a time so I'm limited.

-- Definately work the whole VE table and smooth out the "sections" of the map that are not commonly hit. But pay attention to high rpm, very low MAP sections during decel. I've had these too rich and had backfiring out of exhaust after a strong boosted pull. Also had the car shut off on me due to no fuel at all after free revving into high vacuum areas. I try to build brake booster vacuuum in neutral with a high rev before brake stalling my car at the track trying to build boost. I still have issues with the car shutting off on me after a high rpm free rev. Really just need to work those fuel tables. Its sensitive.

My car has been comfortably idling around 850 rpm although it has some lope from the cam. ~15 to 1 air fuel after running awhile but cold start is typically in the 12's. Took awhile to get to that point but its possible to do.


EDIT: Also note I'm not running closed loop. No narrow bands, just LC1 wideband into ECM for datalogging. No wideband Closed loop and i dont intend to run it. Spark plugs look clean. Tan-ish at idle is where you want to be.

 

the injector vs voltage should be an easy one since he is using the GN 28#'ers. just find the table in $T31(iirc) and paste the values if they are different.

funny how you mention locking the timing out to stabilize idle, it did the opposite on mine, usually the timing bounces back and forth while the IAC counts remain static. and when i raised my idle advance it raised the swing point for the timing errors so i had to lower it down to 22* so it will swing from ~14* to 31* and the idle wont move more than +/-25rpm. i could probably even reduce the deadband and it would maintain. but since im using a fairly aggressive cam on a 110* LSA ill keep it there lol

 

That should work. Lower rpms dont need as much timing as higher rpms, so in theory, as rpms swing, having timing move appropriately, this will help stabilize things. Its just finding that balance to keep it happy. If fuel level doesnt fluctuate, then the motor has no need to change speed. Obviously control over fuel and timing will control idle. It just seemed easier for my cammed motors to idle with higher locked timing and lean it out as much as possible.

I plan to play with mine more and more this year, since my cam and heads are ALOT bigger than anything I've played with yet. Should be interesting.