High 13's, low 14's at idle (target 14.2 due to the ethanol content in our fuel)...

 

Ok ill be back on later, once i get this idle AFR ok

 

u can get the car to idle in the 15's or 16s

 

i should say 15/16's onceits warmed up during cold start enrichment it will prolly start in the 12's and work there way upto the high 14's as the motor temp rises

 

That isn't stoich though, why would you want to? He wants a complete burn at idle w/out being too lean...

 

there is no need for the car to idle at stoich it just wastes fuel, same thing with cruising u can get the car to cruise down the highway at 16.s afr and save fuel

 

In a naturally aspirated vehicle that is fine, but there is no need to in a blown application. Part throttle boost depends on a number of different factors, the size of the turbo and gearing especially, and you want the transition from idle, part throttle and wide open throttle to be precise in terms of air/fuel ratio. This eliminates stumbling. Jumping back and forth from 16+ down to 11- is the wrong approach. Don't forget that the Megasquirt corrects much faster in terms of a target air/fuel ratio, much faster than OBD1...

 

well im back on the computer taking some more fuel out as i managed 12afr at 170 coolent temp.... that was after about 10 minuets at idle. as soon as i gave it just a little gass though the afr's went into the 13s instantly, its just on jack stands and i was only reving to 1500 rpms... and absolutly no knock/retard count but its not under boost anyways.

 

I run my turbo engines in the 15 to 16 AFR range and have no transitional issues.

Use the F28 table to get idle close to stoich, then start with the VE table. You can trim or add a lot fuel using the F28 table.

Congrats on getting it running, it's a great feeling when that happens.

 

Did you touch your AE vs TPS rate yet...?

 

A higher # on the F28 table means a smaller injector right?

 

No, it means longer pulsewidths. Forget about trying to relate it directly to injector size, just remember a smaller number is shorter pulsewidth and a higher number is longer pulsewidth. The number in the F28 table Is the base number the injector pulsewidth calculation starts from.

 

In your Datsun? With which ECM control are you referring to w/no loss of transitional issues? The $59 mask? His resolution is hindered as it is running the 3-BAR, and I believe his ECM is reading air/fuel with the stock narrowband? Why would anyone recommend such a lean idle mixture when it is prone to misfire as it is, especially with a narrowband...?

 

his ecm maybe reading the narrow band for now but hes watching his wideband display to see actualy numbers which is fine. lean cruise and idle is fine the ecm will put the afr were it needs to be under other conditions.

but there is no reason at all that a motor should idle at stoich any engine will idle under a wide range of afrs from 12.0-1 as high as 18.0-1 , the leaner it is the more initial spark advance will be needed though.

the same under cruise condition if u lean the motor out u need to throw some spark advance at it or u will get lean surging

i do belive the ms1 and stock ecm has the same proccesing speed and i never had an issue with mine

 

i run my car in the 15/16 range, since the cam swap.

 

It is not fine, his Acceleration Enrichment tables are not tuned yet and hitting the throttle then suddenly reaching an area that needs a particular amount of air/fuel, the engine will pop back, as block learn updating is much too slow for him to be screwing around with just getting started. Let him dial in his tune the safe way, then he can mess around with running leaner at idle. He is new to this...

... oh yes you did! You think I forgot?

 

In the Grand National? But your AE tables are tuned to compensate either way though, no...?

 

Well i got the afrs to be at 14-14.7 but now its hunting at idle(surging) It will want to stall

 

Post up your injector offset values...

 

On this bin it has those values at 0 when Vs. BPW and when its Vs Bat volts it is 518.81

On the F28 table..the base pulse consistant vs desired erg it is 158

I think on this code the F28 table is the main injector sizing table

 

... it reminds me of Steve's problem when he was running Code 59, then switched to Megasquirt. I believe Bob (RBob) figured out why the problem was occurring, but by that time Steve swapped to a Megasquirt.

 

Yes, that is similar to the stock BBZB. Where is the spark reference set with the $59 mask? Check that the ADS file is correct for your engine's timing, and BPW...

 

Well I added some fuel in the cells on the VE table that are in idle... and it likes to run smooth at 11.5-13 Afr??? Is that not a good thing?

heres a quick vid of whats going on with it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x7lKVP_rhjI
Doesnt stumble anymore...

 

Curious, what are your BLM's reading...?

 

Blms are locked so are the INT it is fixed in open loop only.

 

Im thinking of tossing it into closed loop and see what they are as Im much more familiar with tuning with bml values...

 

Theres not much else I can do for the night. I need to get those couplers in the mail asap! I know i gotta be loosing air, at the charge pipe up to the TB i have a rubber clamp made to seal up PVC piping, but since im just idleing i didnt think it would hurt for now. It does drip a occational drip out of the oil return at the turbo. That needs some attention first and formost. But then ill hope to work the idle more and then part throttle if it is warmer out. next 2 days its suppose to be 30.. thats a little cold i think to tune.

It does seem to idle alot smoother at a richer afr. It actually idles smoother now then it did when i tuned it in its N/A form, any ideas??? Im just giving what the car seems to like i guess..

Heres the rest of the vid from when i shot that 1st one.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cn-Bcqo4VJE

 

put the afrs back to 14.7 and bump up some timming in the idle scells and it will smooth right out

 

Bingo, you need to see what the ECM is seeing first and foremost, as it can be reading an entirely different air/fuel ratio compared to the wideband, which if it is, either the data sent to the ECM is skewed, or there is a problem with the wideband. Is your 3-BAR hooked up? I don't know what the spark reference is set to w/the $59 mask, is it the same as the $58 mask? If it is, then it is set to 0, and you need to set it to where your 3.1 is set...

 

You must really be daft, I've posted this a few times.

'7749 running $59 with a 3 BAR MAP sensor, just like fasteddie is, only difference is ECM service number.

My idle is generally in the 14s, but cruising is in the 15s to 16s with absolutly no misfire.

There's a lot of what you say will be a problem, which absolutely is nit a problem.

Fasteddie has a WBO2 that he is monitoring, not the NBO2.

I recommend not tuning using closed loop, you will be chasing your tail. As you make a change the ECM will already have a trim to the fueling, that will affect the change you just made, to which you will likely change even more to see a change, at which point, the ECM will change the trim again, and the process repeats...

 

Well I honestly don't pay much attention to what you post, so...

... as well as number of injector drivers, and TCC control.

Well, as you can see, he is having trouble getting it to idle in the 14.7 range, so suggesting 16+ is irrelevant right now until he is able to get the engine where he needs it to be, which is the general consensus between most tuners...

... again, you assume that Mark has his tune dialed in to begin exploring a leaner tune, when he isn't even there yet so all of your ridiculous suggestions will do more harm than good right now. Let the kid dial it in first before suggesting things that might cause damage.

The ECM is seeing data sent from the NB02, not the WB02, so until the ECM data matches the WB data, it is absolutely wrong for you to rely solely on the WB02 not knowing what the ECM see's... especially considering that the wideband might be hooked up wrong...

 

Ok the I stopped adding fuel once it was up to 15afr but it was surging. So i turned the fuel back down and got the afr to 12 or so and it idles smooth. The narrow band shows about .500mv when up to temp.

I dont see how I could have hooked the WB up wrong.....the controler doesnt need free air calibration either.

Like sixshooter did say..because ive read it alot for tuning the $59, is to tune in open loop first, or i might be chasing a number that will never come.

Mabey if if just add the fuel back so the afr is 15 and then add some spark it will smooth out.

This is a starter bin so who knows if the spark tables are good... they are probly really weak, as the fueling was so so rich at start up. Rich enough to fry my eyes. But now its much better. I will get on tuning more tommorow. I ran out of time for today.

 

.500mv = 14.6 air/fuel ratio...

 

Mark, what I pointed out above is exactly my point. You can't jump the gun and start tuning Open Loop with the wideband alone without first verifying that the air/fuel that it is reading corresponds with what the ECM is actually seeing. The narrowband is reading stoich and that is what it is telling the ECM, and your engine is running smooth at .500mv (14.6 a/f). However, your wideband is reading richer by two full points. Either your wideband is hooked up wrong, it's defective, or it is placed too far away from the turbo. I had an LM1 in my old T76 setup and it read wrong, I then purchased an LC2 and it immediately read correctly...

 

i know....makes me think
after looking at the last log. it was 450 to 500mv the whole time.

 

If indeed your wideband is off by two full points, then tuning to 16.0 air/fuel would really mean 18.0 air/fuel, and now you see why I am very adamant about tuning to 14.2 for starters. Don't jump the gun Mark. Tuners are going to give you advice, but first you need to get your engine where it needs to be, then you can go after a leaner tune if you want. Confirm what the ECM is actually seeing though, first...

 

Also I had this exact same problem in the $88 mask, always seemed to run rich at idle, to run right..... And there is NO vac. leaks I assure you

Also I see that sixshooter had this problem. Heres what he/you said.

Also I'm leaning towards using F29c since my idle seems to be rich and that's the only way it seems to run at idle, if I lean it out even just a tad it starts to hunt. AFR showing as 13.6 to 12.5 or so for a stable idle.
I did it get down to 15 to 17, but it hunts, and couldn't get a stoich setting out of this. [:-banghead]

So i gotta read some more and geter fixed

 

A .500mv is not rich, it is a perfect 128 BLM...

 

Ok so how do i go about fixing the afr reading? Mabey the NB is having issues??

 

What i mean is when i was tuning for the $88 the .500-.600mv reading was there at idle but was reading way rich BLM.

But when i was part throttle accerating it was reading .600+mv and the BLMs where all in the 124-128

 

There is nothing to read. Your narrowband sensor is reading 14.6 at idle, and the engine is running smooth you say. Your wideband sensor is reading two full points richer than that at idle, and when you lean it out to 14.6 the engine hunts. It sounds like your not getting an accurate reading from the wideband...

 

What was your BLM at idle with the $88, and where was your INT at the same time?

 

It's functionally the same. You forgot about about the ALDL dat [in being a different pin, if you want to get uber technical.



I don't think anyone suggest for him to be a hero and get it to idel at 16:1 AFR now, and I have much more faith in him than that, that he would use a couple braincells at least to get it running well at a richer AFR first.


Actually, no, I know he doesn't have it dialed in. I am nit suggesting anything that will be damaging, again, I have more faith in fasteddi that he will get it running well, before trying to get it tuned in perfectly.



The ECM is seeing data sent from the NB02, not the WB02, so until the ECM data matches the WB data, it is absolutely wrong for you to rely solely on the WB02 not knowing what the ECM see's... especially considering that the wideband might be hooked up wrong...[/QUOTE]

Actually, 450mV is closer to 14.7:1 using a Bosch style NBO2 sensor.

A NBO2 sensor is really a switch and not anything to judge AFR by. About all you can tell is that >450mV is richer than stoich, and <450mV is leaner than stoich.

This tells me there is a problem with your NB)2, it could simply be unplugged, since the byas voltage for the NBO2 input is 450 to 500mV.

The WBO2 is working fine, since you see a corresponding change between the AFR and the way the engine actually runs.

 

O2 sensor mV has no direct correlation to BLM. :facepalm: You can have a BLM of 140 and a 500mV reading, because BLM is only a fuel trim, not a pure indication of what the engine is actually burning.

 

It was a cat and mouse game... the blm would be High(141) or so then the Int's would go down up to 127 and stick there. Then the numbers would chase eachother up and down.

 

Think of what your saying, the narrowband is reading stoich at idle, and the engine is running smooth. You feel that the engine is running rich at idle because of what your newly purchased wideband is reading, and when you lean it out to 14.7 with the wideband the engine misfires and hunts. Widebands are more precise than narrowbands, but only when widebands are reading correctly in the first place. Like I said earlier, my LM1 was off by a point and I purchased it brand new, and this was confirmed by many different widebands borrowed from my Grand National buddies, and once I got my hands on an LC2 wideband to replace it with, it immediately read correctly right out of the box...

 

To clear it up..what is the best route to see that the NB is working right??? I need to make sure thats not messin up my fueling through the ecu. There is no codes thrown on datalogging

 

147 BLM is lean, not rich, you said your idle was reading a rich BLM. See below...

 

You said the engine is running smooth at .500mv narrowband idle (14.6 air/fuel), that is the best route in terms of narrowband credibility....

 

fasteddi is doing it right though, he's not just reading what the screens he's staring at tells him, he uses his other senses like the smel in the air and the watering of his eyes to know that it isn't stoich.

From what I have read here, I'd inspect the NB and the connections a little closer, since the voltage doesn't seem to change. If the NBO2 was in fact fine, than the voltage would drop along with the WBO2 reading. From what fasteddi has posted here, only one of the two items is actually showing a change that is in conjunction with how the engine runs.